The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
538 | Frank Voce & Nick Ricciotti
• The powerful impact of peer pressure in drinking culture, especially among first responders
• How alcohol addiction can become intertwined with personal identity and social connection
• The physiological effects of alcohol consumption including weight gain, poor sleep, and depression
• Nick's journey from losing his police career due to drinking to becoming a licensed mental health professional
• Frank's experience maintaining sobriety while still serving as an active NYPD officer
• The challenges of red flag laws and how seeking help can sometimes create professional consequences
• Different paths to recovery including AA, therapy, fitness, and personalized approaches
• The transformative benefits of sobriety including improved physical health, better relationships, and being present as fathers
If you're struggling with alcohol or substance use, remember you're not alone. Reach out to Reps for Responders or visit a local AA meeting. There are multiple pathways to recovery, and finding the right support system can change your life.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Frank Nick. What's going on, guys? Welcome to the show. A very important episode today. I've been wanting to do this one for quite a long time. Quite a long time Now.
Speaker 1:I've had my ups and downs with this thing we're going to talk about today. A lot over the years, ever since I was 13. And I'm 52 now, so math has never been my very strong topic. So we're going to say, like pretty much most of my life, most of my life, I've had some sort of liquid pour down my throat and affect in the way I live. And, believe me, no good decision has ever come from me drinking Not one. I've never once had a good decision. And I can say that I wrote my first book Drunk as a Skunk, drinking my cracking rum, my writing rum, and I thought that thing came out great and then when I actually read it afterwards, thank goodness I revamped it. So I've been wanting to talk about this. I've touched on my drinking over the years, I've talked about it on the podcast, but I never really said, hey, you know what? I want to talk to other people who have had the same problems and I wanted to face that problem with you guys. So, guys, welcome to the show and again, thank you for coming on to share this.
Speaker 1:I know you have both shared about your struggles and about it's the constant struggle. I know you've both shared about it. It's part of your identity, unfortunately, it's part of your identity. Unfortunately, it's part of your identity and it almost destroyed both of you. I know that for a fact. It almost destroyed both of you as it almost destroyed me. So, guys, before we get into this, I want this is something new. With the protectors, I typically just jump right into conversation, but for the audience, I want, like just your 30,000foot overview of who you are, just who you are. I know some guests like to get into the macro, the micro level, but I just want to know who you guys are. I know who you are, but them.
Speaker 3:Frank, I'll go ahead and go first, if that's what we'll do.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:So the first thing I do is I'll give a title that I cherish very much so, and that is I'm a father. No matter what I do, I will always be a father. First, I have two beautiful boys, a four-year-old and a one-year-old, and neither of them, knock on wood, have ever seen daddy take a drink, and that is something that I pride myself on very much. To go without some other different titles, I am also the vice president of reps for responders, and I'm a therapist. I'm an LAC in New Jersey, I'm licensed in New Jersey for mental health, and I'm going for my drug and alcohol license as well, so I'm currently collecting hours towards both of those licenses, to be fully licensed, with the goal to open up a private practice that specializes and is geared towards first responders and veterans, because myself, prior to my mental health career, I used to be a cop and, like you said, alcohol almost destroyed me, because it is the reason why I lost my job as a cop in 2020.
Speaker 3:I had a drinking problem, I was drugging and it all came crashing down on me, and I went through every cop's worst nightmare, where I got investigated by the prosecutor's office, which is deep-gloved into the DA in New York and other states. I lose my job, I get arrested and I eventually have to pivot what I'm going to do with my life. And that's where I find reps for responders. I start getting sober, I build a support network, I start sharing my strength, experience and hope, and then one day I say why don't I go and make a living with this? Why don't I go and make a career? And that started my mental health journey, where I went to grad school at Rutgers, graduated in two years. Last year I graduated in May and here we are, a little more than a year later, working in the substance abuse and mental health field, changing lives.
Speaker 2:Love it brother Love it. Thank. Thank you, nick. Thanks for for sharing. Um, yeah, my name is frank vose. I am also a father. I'm a husband, I'm a son, I'm a friend to many men. I want to put that out there first as well. I have an 18 month at hold now, caden. I've been in recovery since 2019. I'm also a recovery coach. I am the founder and president of Retro Responders 501c3 nonprofit and I am also a law enforcement officer in a very big city, new York, the NYPD. I just hit 10 years still active. Just made this straightforward. The NYPD did not send me here. I'm not here to represent any part of the NYPD. I'm here to represent myself, frank, as the titles I just gave, besides the NYPD. And I'm a hero, journey enthusiast. Love mythology, love Star Wars, love geeking out on all that, love dealing with Carl Jung and the Shadow and all that work. So yeah, jay, I appreciate you having both of us on man, really do.
Speaker 1:Now I wanted to have you guys both on because, for one thing, you are a dad. You know, being a father is one of the biggest things that made me take that decision and say you know what, I don't need it anymore. And I do want to preface to say like, look, I'm never going to admit my will admit certain things in my life. But one thing I cannot say 100% right now is that I'll never pick up the bottle again. I'll never have a drink again. I don't know if and one of the reasons I say that is because there may be a time in my life where I'm going to have another drink Did I feel like I was an alcoholic? I'm not ready to admit that either. I mean, I look at the quantity I drank, but when I said I was going to stop drinking one day, I just said I'm not going to stop drinking. I said I'm done. But you know, I guess part of it is. And I talked to one of my really, really good friends and she's listening right now, I guarantee it about drinking and one of the things is admitting that you are an alcoholic and you don't got that word alcoholic and maybe by the end of the show. I'll admit it, maybe not, I don't know. But the thing is I'm not ready to get to that point in my life where I'm going to go publicly declared I'm never going to have a drink again Me. I know I'm not going to have another drink again, but I'm not ready to admit it. Maybe that's the problem and maybe I'm just kind of because I'm talking to you guys I feel like a little peer pressure, because that's the first thing I want to talk about right now is peer pressure.
Speaker 1:Now, when I decided to stop drinking, I ran into and I was supposed to go on a really nice vacation with a buddy. I was going to go to Jamaica, we're going to hang out. He was what I thought was sober, but decided that he was going to have some, some drinks in his life. And I personally am at a different phase of my life where when I go on vacation, I want to hike, I want to scuba dive, I want to do exciting things, I don't want anything to do with booze. So I went, we I was at a concert and I ran into a mutual friend who was supposed to go on this group vacation and he says, bro, uh, you ready to get hammered. You ready, ready to get fucked up. And I was like, no, I'm like. I was under the impression I was going to go down there and I was going to, like you know, explore the island and figure out what the hell's going on.
Speaker 1:And I decided to pull the plug. And I was at the point where I said you know what I'm done, I'm done, I don't need that peer pressure, I don't need to go somewhere where it's just not good to me to be around that stuff, because peer pressure happens every day. And in the protector community, especially the protector community, that peer pressure is there. Bro man, I had a rough day. Let's go get a drink. Let's have a drink. Oh man, and then the other, the other aspect of it, it becomes your whole life. I look at my snapchat history and everything I have on. There is a damn picture of me with a crack and rum in my hand or an ipa, and it can't just be an ipa, it's gotta be double or triple ipa. That sucker has to have the most booze in it because I gotta get hammer hammered.
Speaker 1:The peer pressure is true, and that's one thing I want to talk to you two about is like you're younger. You're young fathers too. I mean, my kids are teens. They saw me when I was boozing it up. They saw me with those, that multiple quantities of 1.75 liters a week. You know, they saw me at my worst and has a lot of other people have saw me at my worst.
Speaker 1:But you guys, you nipped in a bud, but you're still under the pressure, you're still under the gun. You're still surrounded by people who that is their lifestyle, that is who they are is booze. So let's get into that. Next is the peer pressure and and and. If someone the really reason I wanted to have this discussion tonight is for saying to for one, to tell people that there are options out there. You have AA, you have cold Turkey and you have just. Maybe you just slow down. Maybe you just say, hey, you know what? I don't need the drink as much, I don't need to make my lifestyle. So, you guys, peer pressure, let's talk about that first. And whoever wants to go first talk as much as you want.
Speaker 2:The soapbox is yours, nick, let's go. Thank you, jay. Let's go back and forth like we started you go first and then I'll go after you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no problem. So peer pressure, as you're talking about, is a main reason why people drink, why they relapse, why they kind of stay in the same exact cycle. And I'll use myself for an example. When I was working on the job, I had a group of friends who we all there were about six, seven, eight of us who all drank together, and that was like my crew of drinking buddies and we would go out, we would binge drink, we would, you know, do benders for two, three nights in a row. And then for me, like something would happen, like I would do something stupid. My girlfriend would get mad at me because I would come home late one night. Right, how did I get home? Like sometimes my car's not there and I would be like, all right, like I need to get everything in line here, I need to make sure my house is in order, I need to make sure things don't really get out of control.
Speaker 3:But I describe, like my relationship with alcohol and those friends as toxic. Because what with alcohol? And those friends? As toxic? Because what would happen when things were good and my friends would call me or they would text me and they would say, hey, what are you doing? Like, let's go out. I would go back out because I didn't want to say no, because I didn't want to fall out of that clique that I was in, because that's how we all essentially bonded, even though we were all masking our own insecurities and our own pain with alcohol. None of us just knew it at the time that that's what we were doing. But that's exactly what it was. It was peer pressure, it was the fear of not fitting in and falling out of place and not having, you know, friends that were on the job who were doing similar stuff that I was doing. And that's really what, you know, what drove the addiction for me. And it wasn't until I started getting sober and I kind of just gradually, we all kind of went our separate ways. But I also made a conscious effort not to surround myself again with people that were engaging in that type of behavior, because me personally, I know what happens when I'm around those types of people.
Speaker 3:And I'll give you a really good example, and this is the self-awareness that I started to gain the same time that I applied for grad school. I got into the iron workers unit in New Jersey. I essentially hit the jackpot again, where I was going to make a lot of money. I was going to get my pension back, I was going to get the health benefits back that you know first responders get. I was getting it all back, just in a different job. And I was actually at the union hall ready to sign up and ready to start my career as an iron worker.
Speaker 3:And as I'm sitting there with all my books in my hand with my first union dues check, I have this realization that I'm essentially going back to the same environment that got me in the exact mess that I was in a year and a half prior, because I know because I had friends who are iron workers that booze is part of that community as well. Guys work, they work hard. What do they do after work? They go get a drink. And I just said to myself I don't want to get into the same situation again and I cut it. I set boundaries with people who engage in that type of behavior and I said never again, because I saw the pain that I put people I care about through and I also remembered the pain that I went through as well, which is something that's never going to leave me, which is good because it's always going to be a reminder of what happens when I'm around those type of people, those type of people.
Speaker 3:So peer pressure destroyed me in my alcoholism. But now I have a lot of self-awareness where I do a really good job of surrounding myself with people who don't put me in those situations. And I'll give an example of that. All of my friends still drink, for the most part Like my childhood friends. I have a core group of really good best friends, like eight of us, and they all still drink and that's great, that's fine.
Speaker 3:We were at a party this past Saturday where everybody was drinking. Do you know how many people offered me a drink? Zero, not one, because they all know Nick doesn't drink. So what's the point of asking me to have a drink If I don't drink? I have good friends. I have good people that I surround myself with that have eliminated that peer pressure for me and I'm at the point now where I'm okay with being around alcohol because I know right now it's not something that I want to do and I take it day by day and every day I wake up and I say I don't want alcohol, because I reflect and I look back and alcohol brought zero good into my life. It just brought chaos. It was destructive and I am on a much different path nowadays. But peer pressure can be a motherfucker man.
Speaker 1:You know, before we go on to Frank, I do want to say that and you guys probably could both contest to this or testify to it is that when people understand that you're on a different phase of your life, you're a different version of yourself, that you've changed, that you don't have to have that drink in your hand, that you don't drink, you're going to notice, if you're surrounded by a core group of people, or a solid group of people who support you, who are your true core, that they won't ask anymore.
Speaker 1:Now, that same guy I ran into at the concert. He works at the concert and he works at a booze booth. The first time I went there he's like, hey, you want a drink? I'm like no, I said I'm done. I saw him over the week. Not one mention of it, of booze, because he knows, he knows I don't drink anymore and he knows I mean, he knows not to ask. And when you get around, when you find out who's truly going to support you in the dark days, 99% of those people are going to support you and not try to push you back into that darkness, into that destruction, into that chaos.
Speaker 3:I have friends who care more about my sobriety sometimes than I do. You know what I mean. Yeah, like they're like no, like you're not, no way, never again for you. And I'm like, yeah, you're right, man, and I appreciate the fact that you were on board with this, frank, you're up buddy, yeah, I'm just sucking it all in, sucking it all in.
Speaker 3:man right, patience, you're a little different to me because you're still on the job, so you're still surrounded by cops who are engaging with drinking after the job and whatnot. My environment's now a little bit different than yours.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, that's definitely true. It is definitely a fact, jay. I want to hit something before you said right, that powerless. That step one and then I'm going to get into the peer pressure. But when we're talking, when I right, everything I speak about tonight is from my perspective, my experience, no one else. I can only talk about what has helped me and what has not helped me. It's not about how much you drink or what you drink. It's what happens to you inside. It's what happens to you when you drink. Okay, I can never call anyone alcoholic, Jay, even if you told me I can never call you an alcoholic because I'm not you, right. But if it's affecting your job, your relationship, your inner peace, those are red flags. If today's Tuesday and I'm thinking about what I'm going to drink Thursday and where I'm going to go, especially if I'm getting a dopamine hit as I'm thinking about it, huge red flag, guys, for whoever's listening, major red flag. There are.
Speaker 2:They say about 10% of people have. I think it's called alcohol, alcohol use disorder. Right, you can't, let's be, let's be honest. We can't handle the drink. I'm a drunk. Alcohol is way more powerful than me, okay, uh, do I wish I could drink, of course, but I can't because I know one is too many, a thousand is never enough. If I have one that's too many, we're gonna go to a thousand and down drinks never enough. So these are little slogans that I keep in my back pocket. Now, if we can peel the layer of peer pressure to me, really, what is it? It's just trying to fit in. It's trying to fit in. It's that little Frank from elementary school, from middle school, from high school. The part of me that's trying to fit in, the part of me that saw my own father drink a Budweiser can every single night, looking at my dad as my hero, right. So we have to be really easy on ourselves, guys. I say guys, I'm generalizing the listeners, because once we start beating ourself up about our drinking, instead of asking, getting curious, why are we drinking? And saying, hey, listen, what are you protecting me from? And I love that. The protector podcast and you know Nick knows already this is internal family system work book have that I'm using. We have these protectors on Jay, you know, and and and we have the protector, we have the manager inside of us. We have the critic, right. And the critic can say oh, jay, you're not an alcoholic, you know, not to call, you know, and then we have the protector saying with the listeners and what you jack, but yeah, man, I mean from.
Speaker 2:I'll never forget. I was training for college football 2012 and I was at my coach's house and we did a whole plan 150 days. I was walking back on having played football in two years. I was like you need college and I missed. I miss, it, was missing something and I was missing being something bigger than myself, the camaraderie being with a bunch of guys, and it's funny how it turns also into NYPD. And we make a whole plan 150 days. I'm talking about what we're going to eat, from when we're going to go to bed, from what workout each day, monday through Friday, like bigger, faster, stronger.
Speaker 2:I remember the rep scheme three by three, five by five, five, four, three, two, one, 10, eight, six. I can tell you the big six lifts, I could tell you the extent. It's ingrained into my brain. And then during it he just says no alcohol. And I go, really, and he goes, yeah, no alcohol, especially for you, and I'm just like, all right, he saw the behavior, he saw the addiction in performing, so that went on. I didn't think about a drink, because my focus, my goal, that I was able to bring, that was my, that was so important to me that nothing was going to get in my way to make that football team and I walked on and I made the team. Once I made the team, that was it. It was like Stone Cold Steve Austin on the top rope, beers everywhere. So I saw the progression pick up big time and I was a blackout drinker. I would have one that turned into 10 within an hour, which turned into you and me, jay. We meet for the first time. We're best friends.
Speaker 2:So the pressure of fitting in, the pressure of hanging out with the good guys and the cool girls and all that, and the pressure, honestly, of not facing Frank, of not feeling those emotions, of not wanting to feel a little anxious if I, you know, have to go talk to a female, or if I'm going to do say something to another man. Oh, I got the, the soup, I got the. Um, not superman. Uh, give me a second space jam, the special water you know, when they were drinking during space jam and it was like for a while it was that fake juice that would get me through these situations, as I thought, like the story I tell myself.
Speaker 2:Then I got into the job and it was four to four, right, you would go work four to 12. And then after that you would go midnight to 4am. And what do we do when we're all hanging out? All three of us know we talked about the job, we made fun of each other, so our brain is not even registering that we're really off duty and I have overtime, that I'm working for free, but I'm spending money. I'm barely making anything as a new cop now, I think I was in a home but I'm spending $100, $200 a weekend.
Speaker 2:And then it would be a cycle. It could be a Friday, saturday, it could be a Tuesday, wednesday, when my days were off, and then I, that guilt and shame, would come in. And that guilt and shame is based off of what, though? The main emotion of fear, of fear, of fear of letting. I had this weird intuition in my body. It's like my myself knew, like my soul knew, every time I drank, even if I didn't say or do anything crazy, I just always woke up with that guilt and shame oh, I shouldn't be doing this, I should not be doing this. That's another red flag for for guys and girls, and I would give myself two, three weeks off. Oh, I feel better now. Same cycle, the cycle of insanity. Or I got a power lifting me, I'm not going to drink for a month, and then powerlifting me happens, and then back and forth.
Speaker 2:So it was this internal battle. And so much time, so much self energy, so many relationships damaged, um, because of this intoxication of, of, of this poison, um. So yeah, peer pressure is, is totally big, um big. Until you realize that hurt people are going to hurt people, heal people are going to help people. So all those guys and I'm still friends with them today, but I don't, you know they're going through it just like you.
Speaker 2:And once you're able to get on this other side, another slogan right, the promises do come true.
Speaker 2:The promises of at least a little more peace in your life, at least meeting cool people like you, jason, and able to do this, at least being present for your son, or having conversation with your wife without yelling, and or just like actually being present. And then I'll leave it with this. It's like you could be sober, but do you have a sober mind? Like I'm really diving more into my recovery. All I could do is stay sober today, man, after this podcast, and I appreciate you, thank you for letting me stay sober tonight, helped me stay sober tonight. I think Nick will say the same, but I still got three hours left in the day. So ultimately it's a choice, man, hour by hour, minute by minute, second by second. But it's our choice and no one can ever take that away from us, ever that this is our choice. And then, if we can get that in our head and play that theme song, instead of the guilt of shame I need to fit in, it's going to empower us more and more each day.
Speaker 1:You know, it comes down to the emotions. At the end of the day it's the emotions, that that feeling you have either when you're doing it or when you're done. And that was what really hit me was, you know, when I was younger I could just drink. I'd be fine. We can go play football games the next day. I mean, believe me, in high school you know we'd drink every night before the game during a week. I mean, it's crazy what you could do to your body. But as I kept getting older and older, I kept doing that.
Speaker 1:I kept waking up the day after two days after I drank, even if I have two or three drinks. Now I wake up the next day and I'm like I got this fog in my head, this depression, this sadness, and even if I didn't say or do anything, I didn't feel like myself anymore. I felt like this guilt because I'm like here I am investing in my body, investing in my mind, investing in my education, investing in the most important thing, which is my kids, and then knowing that if I have two drinks, I'm letting them down. Nowadays, if I have even one drink, I feel like I'm letting my kids down. Even to nowadays, if I have even one drink. I feel like I'm letting my kids down in the back of my head because they've seen me at my darkest. They've seen me stuck in bed for two or three days, hung over. They didn't realize it at the time because they were super young, but now that they're teens, in high school, if I got hammered out, they would know that dad is like there's some issue. And you know they they. They live with their mom, but it's like they would know if dad wasn't showing up and taking him doing this and wasn't acting himself, they would know that things are rough and that's the thing is understanding that it doesn't have to be your life.
Speaker 1:I think that's the biggest reason I wanted to have this discussion with you guys is like, yeah, we all all three of us have, you know it's, it's been a detriment to our life and we couldn't be who we are today if we didn't, if we kept on that path. But the thing is you don't have to make it your lifestyle. You know, I do want to tell a story. I went out, I'm I have this big thing now where I have to go to concerts all the time. I love music, to concerts, but I went with my buddy and we were talking and he was talking about his friend and his friend is this big like bourbon guy and he's like this guy will go out and he's retired military now he's got a contractor gig so he's got a ton of money right.
Speaker 1:But he'll go out and buy like $1,000 worth of bourbon like it's nothing. He'll drink some of it and be like, oh, it just doesn't taste good. And then he'll give these bottles away. And I'm like he's like, yeah, you go down in this basement and he's got bottles and bottles and bottles of bourbon. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm like you're wasting so much of your life and so much of your money. Just waste it. Waste it, I mean on booze that is just because it has a fancy bottle, a fancy name. After that second or third swig it's all going to taste the same, you know come on buddy, you know I can say, hey, you know what You're into wine.
Speaker 1:You swish it and you spit it out and then you have some more later on. Okay, you know, need a little cheese. But if you're going to be drinking bourbon, you have two or three drinks and then boom, you're like, ah, it just doesn't taste good and you go on to the next bottle. You got a problem, brother. I'm sorry you do, but so many of us and it's social media too, it is.
Speaker 1:It's so cool to have that booze to be the burnout. You know I'm just taking the edge off because my life is like this. I'm so cool and burned out. Then you know I'm guilty of it myself. Like I said with my social media posts, if you switch, if you go to the way back machine, like, not even like a year or two years, like three years ago it was bad, it was just always about the booze and how you look with that bottle in your hand and we're going to go out after this and do that. So that's. The other thing is the image that comes along with it. You don't need the image, you don't need it and you don't need that drink in order to be, like you know, badass well, I think this comes down to like a couple things.
Speaker 3:It's number one you kind of touched on it like Like society has normalized, all right, I'm going to go out. Especially like when you go out with like a big group of friends and if you're a parent and your kids are home and you're out with all your friends and parents night out, right, like no kids, no responsibilities for the night until you get home. It's almost like society normalized, like all right, we're going to get after it. It's almost like society normalized, like all right, we're going to get after it. And in the morning I just know that I'm not going to be 100%, but like my question to people would be like why don't you want to be 100% for your kids that day? You know, especially when you have young kids, where they're so impressionable, where they pick up on everything that you're doing, where they're going to realize mommy and daddy are different today and they're going to wonder why. And it's like these moments with your kids when they're young and I use I'm using young kids because I have young kids is they're not going to last forever. Like I'm going to blink one day and my oldest is going to be a teenager and he's not going to want to play with daddy, he's not going to want to go to the park, he's not going to want to go to the pool, he's not going to want to go play tag with me, he's not going to want to do any of these things with me. So for me, it's just like I want to soak in as much time as I possibly can with my kids now, because these moments aren't going to last forever. They're going to be gone before I even realize it and I don't want to ever look back and say I missed out on a full day because I traded being present with my kids for a temporary high. That makes me feel like crap the next morning.
Speaker 3:You know, and it also comes back to you know Frank touched on it a little bit of like you were a binge drinker. I was a binge drinker, you know. I myself. I never drank every single day. I never became dependent on alcohol. I never withdrew on alcohol. I never had to have a drink to function.
Speaker 3:This was one of the biggest things that caused me to not realize I had a problem because in my mind I was looking at other people and when you're a cop, you see people who are alcoholics and you see what they do. So I'm playing in my head I'm not that guy. I don't have to drink every day, so I don't have a problem, right. But in reality, when I look back and I look at my relationships and I look at my performance for my career and all these things, I'm like, well, no, I definitely had a problem because I wasn't performing as well as I could have. And what's the reason why?
Speaker 3:It was because I was prioritizing going out with my friends. I was prioritizing drinking. I was giving up those next few days for a hangover, for those temporary highs which I don't get those days back. You don't get time back, and I think that's really important question for people to ask themselves. It's like, yeah, you might not drink every day, but what happens when you drink? How are your relationships? How's your work? You know all these different domains in your life. Could they be better without alcohol? Because, like we've said, there's really not much good that comes from alcohol.
Speaker 3:When I go out and I talk to groups of cops, I always ask one question who has ever woken up from a full-blown night of drinking and said, holy crap, that was the best thing ever, I feel amazing. Let's go do that exact same thing right now. More times than not, no hands go up and it's like well, now ask yourself, why are you doing that thing? And most people it's just like because it's society, because it's normal, this is what we do, because most people don't do the inner work that all three of us have likely done, right, like I know, I've done a ton of internal work.
Speaker 3:Frank mentioned IFS internal family systems which is called parts work, and he touched on it a little bit. I've done parts work. I've recognized the parts that protect me. I've recognized fear. I've recognized the risk taker in me. I've recognized all these things and I face them, which has helped me become a better person, because now I know I'm able to face these emotions, these fears, without alcohol, because I've equipped myself with tools. I have coping skills, I have friends, I have people surrounded by me who support me, who can help me get through whatever it is I'm going through, without having to turn to Jameson and Blue Moon, because those two are my go-to.
Speaker 1:You know, nick, we can sit here all three of us and preach all day long of the benefits of not doing it. I think sometimes people need to understand why we don't do it. You know, that's one thing I want to get into. Both of you guys is like that darkest point, and feel free to like if you want to share. You don't want to share, you want to talk about someone else. You know, my darkest points to me is like I see them in my mind. I can't really convey them as good as I know what they are. That's a picture of me online where it's on 300 pounds Sad, bloated, sad and bloated that's the two things that come to my mind. Sad and bloated, and I could probably say that.
Speaker 1:You know, I told this story before about how I had a health scare and I passed out in front of my daughter and I just I fell flat on my face because my blood pressure spiked and everything I was drinking at the time Not that day, but there was a lot of my health and a lot of my obesity was because I was drinking so much, and that was the catalyst for me. It was like I have to stop, I have to, I have to. You've lost your career, frank, I don't. I you know. I guarantee if you didn't take that step, you're, you would not be a cop today. There's no way.
Speaker 1:But I want to. I want to talk to both of you guys. I want to. I want you to share you know about that. And then, frank, I do eventually. I want to get into into how you took that step to get out of this Really, I mean, the lowest point to where you guys are right now is like it's like a different world, because you look at both of you. Now you're posting on social media all the time. You're healthy, you're fit, 5 am on a Saturday. I guarantee you guys have a clear head.
Speaker 3:So let's get into that. I mean the why. I'll talk physical first and you kind of just mentioned you talk about health and that for you, other than the weight gain, you know you had some health scares. A lot of people may not have health errors I personally didn't but it's crazy. You know, if you're listening to this and you're in the gym and you're eating right, I challenge you to stop drinking for 30 days and look what's going to happen to your body.
Speaker 3:Because when I was drinking I still I follow like an 80-20 rule when it comes to nutrition. Like 80% of the time I'm on I'm eating healthy, the other 20% I'll eat a McDonald's, I'll pretty much eat whatever the hell I want. Right, I was still training four or five. I was actually training more back then. I was actually trained about five, six days a week when I was drinking and I thought I looked good.
Speaker 3:And when I look back on pictures now from when I was drinking, training, doing my 80, 20 rule, I'm bloated, my skin looks awful, like you can see it in my eyes that like there's something wrong behind what's going on. And when I stopped drinking I did 75 hard, which is a program by Andy Frisella, who is the owner of first form supplement company, and there's a bunch of things that you have to do, but one of the things that you have to do is not drink for 75 days and I could never fully complete the program. But the one thing that I have to do is not drink for 75 days and I could never fully complete the program. But the one thing that I continued to do and this is how I got sober was not drink and I took a 60 day picture and the difference from when I was drinking to those 60 days when I wasn't but I was pretty much doing everything exactly the same was eyeopening and I was just like I can't believe that.
Speaker 3:I thought that I looked good here and I'm bloated, like I said, my skin looks awful and I'm just like. This is what alcohol does to you and you don't realize that until you actually cut that thing out. So that I mean the physical thing. For me and I know a ton of you know fitness is on a high right now. You know everybody's into fitness, everybody's into their health, which is great, but if you're still drinking and you're doing all these other things, you're going to the gym, you're eating healthy I'm telling you you're not capitalizing on all the potential and all the gains I'll use that word gains that you could possibly be getting if you were still drinking. And I mean I'm telling you you don't need to be drinking every day, you know, just having those few drinks you're cutting into your progress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I got the data right here, nick. Let's talk about the physical, you know, let's get rid of the emotion. Let's get rid of, let's take a pause on the emotional side and this is what we're really never learned in high school or even in the academy the, the, what it does to our physical body, right, and not our emotional body, but we can't disconnect it. Physical is emotional, emotional, physical the body keeps the score. There's so much data out there. Believe what you want, but this is, you know, my perspective and I wanted to hit something, though.
Speaker 2:You're talking about the blackout drinker. So towards the end of my drinking career, I got so dependent on it, I was drinking almost every day and that was really scary, and I just want to put that out there, as I, that could be any of us that it is so powerful. There's an actual, a, literally quote, a quote, you know, from Alcoholics Anonymous, right, that no human power, you know, can heal. This basically is that you need a spiritual awakening and some type of also spiritual program in your life, if it's a God, if it's a higher power, if it's faith, right, and to me you hear the cold turkey and I know some people that have done a cold turkey and it's. We have one guy I'll shout him out from heroin, nick Dan, from the firefighter who was presented with us, but I know for a fact that he's still talks about it right To other firefighters like that. This is how he did it. He has a supportive wife, so he's still has some type of support. It's not like you're going cold turkey and you never talk about it again, because here's the thing it's always part of us, it's inside of us. It's about acknowledging and giving yourself permission to say okay, I know you're there, you're in the basement, you're chained up right now and I'm going to leave you chained there today and I thank you for, instead of being so angry with it, thank you for protecting me from trying to not feel X, y and Z. I understand what your job was, but I'm Frank, I'm 33 years old. Today I got this. I can lead just for today and you're going to stay there. Conversation to start. I still have this conversation all the time because, to be honest, scott, it's really, it's really effing hard. It's hard.
Speaker 2:I don't think about a drink every single day, but that's the thing is that if we are in a vulnerable emotional state, we always know what was there for us to make us feel better, instantly, on the spot, and you can call it dry drunk. And in my recovery I've seen some I'm coming forward with it some symptoms of dry drunkness, which is I'm admitting that to my life, nick, I don't think I admitted it to you but what is that? It's myself numbing out on certain situations to protect myself, to not feel. But I'm getting more aware of that. Okay, it's happening right now inside of me. What can I do? Right now? I can pause, I can take a breath, I can do some diaphragmatic breathing. I can try to talk to the part, my breathing. I could try to talk to the part. If not, I got to move my body. I have to move my body. Energy flows the way you move it. So once you start moving your body, I guarantee you, even if it's five minutes, your thought process is definitely going to change differently. So I want to put that out there.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about alcohol. It enters our body as an actual toxin. This is off the dome right here. This is no script. It's a poison, okay, ethanol right? Um, it's a poison, okay, ethanol, right. It's a poison. It creates something in our body called acetaldehyde, which is poisonous. Humans are so resilient that our bodies were able to create acetate, which is able to fight that poison. If we couldn't create acetate, we'd be dead. We literally poison ourselves. So obviously I would hope that we're drinking it.
Speaker 2:It's going down our throat and we have a very important nerve right, the vagus nerve that connects from our stomach all the way up to our brain mind, whatever you want to call it to our brain Cause I think the mind is. I think we have multiple minds. It's going to sound freaky. I think we have the mind is. If I ask you where the mind is, do we really know? So you show no. So If I ask you where the mind is, do we really know? So you show no. So 95% of our serotonin is created where, in our gut. This is going to be very gut-based, heavy, because the gut is also considered the second brain.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the foods we eat can help create anxiety and suppression or can help fight against it. So as it enters into our stomach, it literally kills all the bacteria in our stomach. It kills the good bacteria and the bad bacteria, but something crazy happens where the bad bacteria literally leaves the stomach and it goes to the brain which causes craving. It's like wild, right. It's like the devil knew, like Lucifer knew, like if I create this, right like this is what's going to happen. So there's about not seven to nine calories in a beer, right, in a shot, so I mean 70 to 90. So this is where I'm going to pull up very interesting, very interesting numbers here for the fitness, nutrition side, for everyone, just just for perspective is so we have a PowerPoint here.
Speaker 2:Basically, right for responders alcohol and sleep right, because we want, I wanted to create something. We always hear how bad it is for us. Emotional. It's also a depressant. We're in a high stress, hypervigilant nervous system job. Right, once we start drinking. I I call it like you're. You're increasing that depression and that anxiety tenfold. It's like you're withze. You're giving your emotional state steroids in a negative way. So alcohol seven calories per gram of alcohol, right. So that's less than fat has nine calories, right? The average light beer has 105 calories. The average regular beer has 150 calories. The average daily limit for drinks right for females is one to two and for men two to three.
Speaker 2:Let's put this perspective 14 drinks a week, two per day, an extra 1750 calories. 21 drinks in a week, three per day 2625 extra calories For the week. I was probably drinking when I was really part puppy 20 drinks in a night. I was probably drinking when I was really part puppy. 20 drinks in the night that's really, if you talk to a drinker in a five-hour span, that's really nothing to brag about. That's how sick it was.
Speaker 2:So obviously the body wants to get rid of the alcohol. It's a toxin, after all, so the body works hard to eliminate it. If you're eating a meal and drinking beer or wine, your body isn't absorbing the nutrients because it's too busy trying to get rid of the toxins. So your body holds metabolism of fat and carbohydrates in order to prioritize the processing of alcohol. Carbs and fat are now left in the shadows and they become stored.
Speaker 2:Some of the alcohol is used for energy, but most of it is empty calories. There is absolutely no nutritional facts. No, it doesn't have any vitamins. Nothing to alcohol, right? Think about that. 21 drinks in a week. If you had 21 drinks a day, 2,625 extra calories You're adding. If you're trying to gain weight, lose weight, right? You're adding another day of eating just from drinking in five, six hours.
Speaker 2:It has negative effects for male testosterone disrupts sleep, without a doubt. The sleep is horrible. Increasing for high blood pressure, stroke, liver damage, I mean it goes on and on. Damages to cell what is cancer? Dysregulation of the cell? I mean it goes on. And how many reports are cancer-related? But alcohol is really not in that right.
Speaker 2:Talking about suicide, really, unfortunately the numbers are high and low in force and we taught this to the first responders mission right, first responder and it's only increasing. You know, I was listening. It's like, with all this, all this, like ai and this financial right, are we really going to be have a? I'm, the fearful I have for my son and the generation behind me is really not a financial problem but an emotional problem. Is all this technology and handling your emotions? Um, the cdc says 22 of suicides are the blood alcohol content? Uh, is higher than um the limit 22. So let's just say one in four suicides are, and I know because I used to work behind the scenes, a lot of police suicides have alcohol involved. Um, I know we went to the emotional state it's so hard not to get, you know, passionate about, but it really does a lot of damage over time.
Speaker 2:It's like that's to a thousand paper cuts, right, and then you got to think about how many lives you're going to get, how many times are you going to get behind the wheel. It's 2025. There's so many different ways to drive or something that's going to happen. Or you're going to wake up and say, wow, where am I? Where's my wallet? I lost my credit card. I lost this.
Speaker 2:One of my fears is I'm on a vacation or I'm walking through New York City and I'm with my family and I'm boxed and something happens and I can't be there present because I'm so intoxicated. Or I'm home and I passed out because I'm intoxicated. Someone broke in, something happens to my son. I can't I know myself. It's going to be really, really hard to let go of that. So these are.
Speaker 2:You talk about the dark places and I know I've. I've really gotten into a lot of relationships and the relationship with my father. Now he got sober. After me. He went to the same rehab I did Thank God he's been, you know but he had alcoholic acidosis, which is basically your body, your organ, shutting down from alcohol. He got a new kidney. Thank God, he's been in recovery since November of 2019, september 2019. We have a complete different relationship today from the last five years than we did for 28 years of my life.
Speaker 2:From the physical point, the more we're not drinking, the more we're sleeping. To me it goes sleep, nutrition fitness, sleep, nutrition fitness. The magic happens when we sleep. We're not taught sleep hygiene ever. We're not taught in the academy. We're all over the place with our bodies. We weren't created to do this job in law enforcement, we weren't, but somehow to give us credit and cops.
Speaker 2:I believe we're one of the most resilient creatures on this planet because we always just figure out a way. We figure out a way to make it happen, to keep people safe, to do our job. It doesn't mean that we're not going to pay the price to admission. This is the price to admission. I signed up for this job. People can complain about the job all day and every day.
Speaker 2:But there's also a choice we talked about. You can leave whenever you want. So you have to ask yourself why can't I leave? Of course, the first thing is going to be financial. But if you're drinking yourself throughout your whole career, I firmly believe, jay, that drinking is a form of suicide over time. Totally Because you're chained in emotionally. You're causing all these physical health problems. Uh, you're causing your. You can't even absorb your meals. Your it's in your body for 48 to 72 hours so just when you're done drinking, you think it's still going to slow down you, how you think and how you feel. So I mean, if that stuff doesn't scare you enough, right, just to start thinking, just to change the thought process of maybe a different behavior you may have, you know, that red flag, but yeah, there's so many negative effects to it and once you start understanding how the body works a little bit, it's phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll get into the physiological thing again and we'll get into how you can get help. But you know, I talked about peer pressure.
Speaker 1:We talked about peer pressure and I think that was my biggest. You know, in my mind I always visualize an alcoholic as Nicolas Cage in Leaving Las Vegas. I mean you're drunk, you're drunk, you can't live without it. You need it in the morning, you need to. You know you're drunk. You can't live without it. You need it in the morning, you need to. You know you're the um you're the can of yeah, you're the.
Speaker 1:you're the keanu reeves guy in street kings where you're just swigging a vodka because you need it, and to me it's like I just you know, I had the epiphany. I'm like I'm I'm giving into peer pressure in this podcast, before this podcast, because I knew we were going to be drinking my booze and I knew that eventually I may go and have a drink and with social media or with anybody, anybody seeing that I'm pushing myself to be the best version of myself sees me with that drink, then I'm going to let them down. But then I think to myself I'm like, okay, there are pictures of me online right now what appears to be alcohol, but I went to mocktails. I stopped drinking booze, like when I'm out with, because I know I had a problem. But I can't admit that this problem's in the back of my head, because as we're talking about the booze and as we're talking about this, I remember the good times, the fleeting good times. But I also remember that I have anxiety.
Speaker 1:So I was on Lexapro for a long time, and when I was on Lexapro is when I was drinking my heaviest, because what happens when you're on Lexapro a lot of people don't understand this when you're on an anti-anxiety medicine, you could drink a metric shit ton. And the problem is you keep drinking and drinking and drinking and you're like, why am I not getting drunk? Then, boom, you're drunk. So I'm drinking and drinking, and drinking and I'm taking Lexapro and I'm wondering why I'm depressed. Why am I still depressed if I'm on Lexapro? Because I'm drinking the visceral fat around my stomach. I had a solid stomach, the solid when I was 300 pounds. My stomach was solid because it was just empty, just fat. And while I'm on this conversation with you guys, while we're talking tonight, I'm thinking to myself. I'm like you know what? I did have a problem with alcohol and, yes, cold turkey for me is different. But as we're talking, as we're drinking, I could almost feel that watering. You know that huh, that smoky bourbon. You know how cool it is to be at the bar.
Speaker 2:It's right inside of us, jay See, bourbon, you know how cool it is to be at the bar.
Speaker 1:It's great inside of us, jay.
Speaker 1:See, I think about like when I used to go out with a friend and we'd have like these smoky drinks and I'm like, oh, this is so cool, oh, it tastes so good, and it's like the best thing ever. And then I'm thinking to myself, like why do I need that? And like it's the elixir. It's that the social anxiety. You think like, hey, you know what, if I have that drink, I could talk more. But what I'm learning now is I don't need a drink in order to be my true self. I could go out there and I could talk shit all day long as my normal self without a drink. And, as a matter of fact, I'm really into music now because I could listen to it, I could hear it, I could see it.
Speaker 1:And the best thing about all of this going to concerts sober. And I'm watching people at concerts with these 20, 50-ounce. They were drinking like gallons of booze and God knows how much you're spending. But the thing is the next day. I remember every song, I remember that feeling and I remember the company I was with. I remember how great it was to be with these people and be with certain people and just it's so special because we're sober and we're seeing it. We're experiencing it together. We're seeing these things together and we're seeing life together, sober, and that's the thing is, like there's so much around it that we just, ah, it's just peer pressure, man, and and that's the thing is like, just admitting it, that's the biggest thing, and that's what I want to get into now is like, when you admit it, how do you get help? And you guys have both gone different paths and that's the one thing we need to talk about is how do you get help?
Speaker 3:Real quick. I want to talk about peer pressure one more time, because what I've been able to do with peer pressure is flip it you talked about like an image that there is on social media. I'm trying to create a brand for myself. I'm trying to create an image by relapse. If I start drinking again, I have to think what is that going to do to my image? So I'm actually going ahead and I am trying to double down on peer pressure, but I'm trying to use it now for something positive, because I know I have enough tools on my tool belt to manage peer pressure from drinking. But I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to leverage the image that I'm building and that pressure to continue to keep this image, because it's truly who I am. It's not a facade, it's not fake what I put out on social media, the things that I talk about with people when we talk about this. This is me, this is what I believe. So I think if you can leverage the peer pressure a little bit and turn it into a positive, you're going to have a recipe for success. I just wanted to point that out there about the peer pressure. But we can talk about, like the how of how Frank and I both did this, because our stories are different.
Speaker 3:I never went to treatment. I contemplated treatment but I didn't go. I've probably been to non-first responder AA meetings zero. I did AA virtually because when I got jammed up and I lost my job and I started getting sober, it was COVID. So I did a handful of AA meetings but I didn't do AA, I didn't do NA, I didn't go to treatment. I didn't do smart recovery. I built myself a recovery program that worked for me. And what did I do? I cut toxic people out of my life. I set boundaries with those people. I set boundaries with alcohol. I got into my fitness again for real. I ate healthy Social connection I talked about. I surrounded myself with good people who believed in me. I stopped drinking. I got into therapy one-on-one therapy. This was my recovery plan.
Speaker 3:Today, in October, I'll have five years sorority. Today I still see the same therapist that I started seeing, and it's not because I'm triggered to drink. I just continue to see a therapist because I just literally like to talk to somebody who has an outside perspective on what I'm going through in life. Right, and when shit hits the fan and I need to navigate certain situations. I know that I have somebody there, but I didn't do like I said. I wasn't a formal guy. I am an advocate because I've seen it work.
Speaker 3:But there's not one way to recovery. There are multiple pathways to recovery and if you've tried a handful of times and it doesn't work, maybe it's time to try something different. Handful of times and it doesn't work, maybe it's time to try something different. If you've not done AA and you've tried to do things Jason's way and you fall back into the same exact cycle and you fall back into the same exact mess before, well, guess what? Maybe you should try AA, maybe you should give that a shot. You know there's a ton of different ways you can do this.
Speaker 3:At the end of the day, what matters is are you not drinking? Are you putting in the work into yourself? Is there personal growth happening and are you identifying and facing the reasons as to why you used to drink? And if you can do that in any spectrum, in any way, shape or form, that to me is a recovery plan right. There doesn't have to be a formal way, it doesn't have to be a. You can do it yourself and you can develop a really solid recovery plan and it can work, and I'm proof of that.
Speaker 3:Like I said, I've done things in my recovery that have worked so far. So, in my mind, if this has worked for me this long, coming up on five years why would I change it? It's not broken. Don't fix it right now. Now, it's not broken. I'm not going to fix it. And guess what? If things ever fall off and I need to come up with a backup plan, I will. There's options out there, but for me, that was how I got sober and, like I said, I'm going to keep it going because there's no reason to change it right now.
Speaker 2:And frank frank's is a little bit different than mine yeah, uh, thank you, nick, for sharing that because it's you know, it's still five, six years in right since 2019, and it's still still not easy to talk about like I don't want. You know, if people do follow us at reps like, oh, we're out there, we're talking about it. It's not like nick, we have the most conversations like I even have the conversation with nick like man, like I think I gotta slow down on some things because I've shared so much today was like a way to help people out. That's, ultimately. It was and it still is obviously um 12 steps, alcoholics, anonymous, live, learn, pass on um and uh. But when you're sharing so much, you don't really have I'm really noticing like a a chance to really process and be like damn, I really went through a lot of shit and like I just realized I grabbed a seltzer but like that could be a trigger, I'm not going to drink out of this video Like it looks like a beer. Can you know so little things like that? It's there, it's there. That's why we have these tools. That's why we have responder talk. That's why there's so many other groups out there. Yeah, I just wanted to put that out there and you know, even take a pause for a second. It was okay to pause out there, right, and we don't need to have all the answers right now.
Speaker 2:I mean, 2025 has probably been the hardest year of my life coming forward to it. You know, jay, I messaged you on the side. I was like I got to. You know, there's a story I got to share with you that I have never came public with, right, you know, and it it right. You know, um, and it's been really, really tough and it's really made me dive back into my recovery. Um, the the deeper parts of it. Um, but for me, I mean step one, apple oaks, anonymous, we're powerless over alcohol and our life has become unmanageable. So when people think their life is not unmanageable, like, oh, I still have a roof over my head and I have a car and I have a family, but, like, what is that internal voice telling you? Like, how much are you really battling with yourself throughout the day? How much? What's your inner peace scale? Look like I'm still trying, I'm, I battle it every single day. Still six years in, what do you do? Um, but I know that it doesn't hurt as much when I call my body. I know that I'm able to go one more rep. I know I'm able to show up for other people and I can literally count on myself and try to learn more that I can lead from myself. It's nick. You know what i're looking for. I can parent myself and I think a lot of the time we use alcohol we're not parenting ourselves, we're looking for that.
Speaker 2:It's a cry for help. That's how I looked at it, man, in my drinking. It was I'm in a lot of pain. At first it's fun, it's great, you're going out, you're doing. You know I've got to tell about more stories, right, we all have them. And then it gets to that point, man, where you're like drinking that bourbon by yourself and that's a guard. You're like and make the running joke. I could walk into the same bar and be like frank, where you been like, oh, I've been in the bathroom the whole time. Six years later they don't even notice, you're gone, that bar stool, they, they don't even know and they're still like man. This person is so much pain that they need this substance to escape reality and it's really tough and it's not even just booze. We talk about social media. It's so much, so much. People are really in pain and it's hard to admit that you need help Women, men, especially in man culture with the way that we were raised as a provider and a protector and I can't, you know, I can't cry in front of my wife and I can't talk about this, and it's a fucking real story for me for a long time and I had this story in my head.
Speaker 2:I think it's is the story we tell ourselves the truth or is it just familiar? That's what I've been really saying to myself over the past few weeks. Is the story I'm telling right now is it really the truth, or is it just familiar to me from a galaxy far, far away and I think in cop culture that's so true with alcohol. Is it the truth, or was it just this familiar old school folk tale that cops used to drink on the job and this is how it was and you gotta fit in to do this? And then you see all these guys getting jammed up, or they're retiring and they're divorced already twice, or they have this child support and it's like, do I really want to live that life, you know? So it's just a something to be aware of.
Speaker 2:Um, and most people and I've created amazing friendships and friendships have gotten better, stronger. They're in your corner. You know the people that are going to talk shit about you and smack about you is because they're jealous and envious that they can't put down a drink. And then you are living a life that we created. We are creating this life. There's no magic shortcut for us how to be a father, how to be a cop, how to live life, retirement right. We create our own destiny. There's no such thing as destiny and it's our choices, and I know the destiny that I want. I can't afford a drink. I don't know if I have another one left in me, because I know what can happen and that scares the shit out of me, like Nick was saying, and it got to that point of that when my back was literally against the wall. I was like do I just end my own life Right, like it's over? And that was sometimes. I think today is like damn, I really it was seven years ago, six years ago. And I'm like I really it was seven years ago, six years ago. And I'm like I made it through.
Speaker 2:And then, instead of getting so angry at that part of myself, it was just if we could look at that suicidal part and instead of getting scared of it and feeling so judgmental of it and like what the fuck is wrong with me and, oh my gosh, like you know, I'm gonna lose everything. It's like getting curious with it. You're here because you're protecting me from something. You're protecting me of what? Feeling something so intense, so something that will make you feel like less of a man in quotes, and you don't want me to feel that anymore. You would think you see how I'm talking. It sounds it's, it's crazy, but you think that where, right? All the parts of Frank are better off, but we want to be here. So invite them to the dinner table, have the conversation. Like this man, why do you want to drink so bad right now? Tell me like it sounds crazy, but that's the conversation you got to have with yourself and it's hard work and it might lead you to pick up a drink or a shot and you know, but then you're on the right track to something.
Speaker 2:So once I really just was taken over, I felt like a zombie on the medication, drinking off the medication oh, why would I take medication? I'm talking about ssris. I felt like a zombie when I could just drink. So, yeah, like you were talking about jay, if you're on antidepressants very powerful medication please don't drink on it, please. That's literally giving your alcohol some steroids. It will really beat you down.
Speaker 2:But it was that point of I had no in my mind. It literally got to the point do I want to live or do I want to die? And in my mind I thought I lost my job. My mind, I thought I lost my job. I thought I lost everything because I had two different departments college football, beautiful girlfriend, eagle scout, volunteer, firefighter, decent weightlifter. I got nothing else to live for. That's what it was telling me. Like you did everything you want in your life. You have nothing else, man, just and this pain for yourself. We'll move on. Maybe we'll find another spiritual world, maybe we'll find another body in the future and try it all over again. You know, and you don't want to put your family through this. So just move on, frank, right, but that's just one part of you. So if we can bring that the drinking, the depression, it's just. It's not who we are, it's just a part of us and we need to realize that it's really had. It's helped, really helped me. Like I said, in 2025, I'll be blunt, I mean, I'll come forward with it.
Speaker 2:I went to purchase a firearm in 2024 of August and I got denied and I was on this list for six years when I got help in 2018 at the hospital and I was a flag Jay red flag law in New York state. Should I have a firearm? Involuntary mission at a hospital triggers mental health hygiene law 9.27. I had no idea I'm on this list I had. I was back full duty for two years with the NYPD, supposed to get promoted to Sergeant September of 2024. Since I'm restricted, they might be found out took my firearm away and I've been in a battle ever since with the state. It's looking good to get removed from the next federal next list. You know had to get state fingerprinted again criminal background check, fbi background check over five like letter of recommendations explain what happened, how they do another risk assessment.
Speaker 2:So when I was saying 2025 was hard because I had to relive that all again, I thought it was done. I thought you know I'm the cop that raised his hand and checked myself in the hospital three times with my family and you know this is the hero journey, right, and it brought back some. It brought back some, some minotaurs, but with people in my corner, like Nick and Raps and my beautiful wife and my family, and when we're at that point, we realize how much we have to lose if I pick up a drink, and when no one's perfect I'm not perfect, I'm working on it. That's a great quote. You realize how many people are in your corner. You realize how many people are in your corner and a major motivational factor for me was like I'm not going to let them win, like I put everything on the line right as a cop. In my mind, then, to do the hardest thing, I feel like it is as an officer. Besides having to fire a weapon, I truly believe I need help. That's probably the second hardest thing as a cop.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you guys would agree with me to come forward with and living in the unknown. Am I going to keep my job? What are my coworkers going to say? Are they going to invite me back out Right and taking that risk and that chance? But the more in this police realm people are talking about it, I want the cop to get the help because I don't want a cop who's hung over don't running a sector next to me or with me. I don't know. Our life is on the line right.
Speaker 2:So thinking of it like that, um, so it was a hard battle, but we're still here, right, sober today, and um are just. We're preparing ourselves with our recovery, with our fitness, with talks like these, for moments like this that don't we don't even know it exists yet, but it's going to happen. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when you're going to get that call and be like shit. Am I sober and do I? Am I? Do I have the emotional tools to handle this right now and do I? Am I? Do I have the emotional tools to handle this right now? What am I going to do? That's where, like, the scatterbrain happens, and but that's what we're preparing for, something bigger than ourselves in the future. And it's not a matter of if, right, it's a matter of when, and if you have kids too, they're bound to you for life. You gotta be ready. So I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to share that. You know I'm going to hopefully get promoted soon, get back reinstated, full duty. I've been working domestic violence for the last year. It's been a great learning experience.
Speaker 2:But just as a catch like a cliche to officers and each state is different. If you're a gun guy, right, have the Knicks and the Red Flag. Each state is different. The ERPO they would call it here in New York is that when you are PBA or you're going to help an officer, make sure you have a relationship with the hospital. Make sure when you go there, knowing if you have it like how many departments have an actual crisis management plan if they have an officer and you know what, jay, it's scary. I know a lot of departments that have zero, zip, nothing. What are you going to do?
Speaker 2:So I would say, take leadership of that. If you're a higher up in there, if we have an officer in crisis, where are we going to take them? How are we going to get them help? And then also have someone be there to lead the way? Cause every time I went to the hospital, jay was with my family. I had no idea I was on this list, I had no idea I was an involuntary admission. So I purchased that firearm and I got denied. So, knowing, voluntarily or involuntarily, yeah, I was in a really bad place, but I can't go back right. That's how the victim mindset can get us, but at the end of the day, we got to save an officer's life.
Speaker 2:This is really just a job and I know many people who have left early because of police work. And that's good for you, man. You're not running from it anymore and that's the biggest message tonight have to run from it. You don't have to run from it alone like we want you to be that best version of yourself and we want you to be easy on yourself. When we could do that, we can really start to heal and then we can learn.
Speaker 2:So far, but, just like everything else, one day at a time. The days do add up and um is looking, the dust is settling and should be a sergeant by the end of the year or sooner than later. But I just wanted to share that for the first time because it was a lot. What do you think that's the best part? You hear the whole timers in the AA room when you start thinking you have your recovery, hit more meetings, because that's when I say, oh, I got this. And that's why they say it's a we program, not a me program. And it doesn't have to be AA. It could be a support group, it could be a close friend, someone you can feel safe with.
Speaker 1:I thank God you brought that up. I thank you for sharing that story because, yeah, I am a gun guy and yeah, that's. You know, that's your career, that tool is your career. And we talk all day long and, geez, we have a lot of friends that talk about this stuff, especially when it comes to PTSD, when it comes to now with alcoholism, when it comes to suicide. Hey, you know what? We talk all day long and once in a while you get some management buy-in saying yes, come forward, talk about your suicidal ideation, talk about your PTSD, talk about your booze, get the help that you need.
Speaker 1:But when you do and you don't have, when you do and you don't have the right guidance and the verbiage saying involuntary or voluntary, even when you're there, voluntary, one word is ruining your life. One word is steading you back years. And I can see in your eyes and for the listeners out there, you can see the pain. This is the pain you're trying to avoid by becoming sober and you're getting re-victimized again. You're going back and you know what, frank, you've told your story probably a hundred times, hundreds of times, Not this story, but your sobriety story.
Speaker 1:And how many people have you helped? How many people have Nick helped? How many people who have gotten sober have helped other people by getting sober? But then you have the people who are still on the job, drunk on the job, need the help, absolutely need the help, but they are so afraid to come forward because of stuff like this. And we're talking about booze tonight. But we need to have another thing, another conversation when it comes to PTSD and suicide, because we got stories about that too. But, frank, seriously, you're re-victimized again.
Speaker 2:No, thank you, Jay. I appreciate that. I think it talks about just talking about this and responding to all the victim mindset you know and and trying to have compassion and courage for myself of we have. It's okay that we are the victim, because it's true, but then it's like what are we going to do with that victim mindset? Because I lived in that victim mindset for like six months of 2025 and I did not like the man I was becoming. I'm going to be straightforward and, jay, probably from reps, posts and everything you have no idea, right, you know, trying to show up, trying to do this, you know, for other people, keep your organization going. No overtime, my schedule's all over whack. Just bought a house, had a baby. It did a lot of damage, but my recovery and my higher power and people like Nick and following people like you, jay, and just having that support group dude literally saved my life, not even kidding and it saved my life in 2019 and it's still saving my life today. That's why it's so important and you talked about that. A lot of departments fail on.
Speaker 2:What is a relationship? It's communication and trust. That's literally a relationship with a husband, a wife, a friend, a son, a child, whatever a daughter. It's communication, trust, compromising, right. So you have listen, the whole mental health system. I'm really like, the more that we diagnose people from a book like, the more like people are going to live by that diagnosis and they're're going to like oh, I got to do this, this and that, right, and it's like it's just starting with, it's just like compassion and going back to your roots and forgiving the two, like just forgiving the people that taught you life in the beginning. Everyone I feel like everyone goes through it. You have to I'm getting really deep here. Your mom and your dad. They had the tools that they knew they had. They learned from someone else. They tried to do the best that they could and you have to do that inner child work. You know nick is a therapist. Now it's it's. You know that's all his alley, really, but to me it's really helped a lot. But it's that relationship, that trust, and a lot of departments don't have it. Man, that's why people like reps has no affiliation with the department for a reason.
Speaker 2:2019, 2019, 10 officers lost a lot of suicide in the NYPD 10,. You know, there's some really scary numbers I just don't want to come public with right now, but in the year from 2024 to 2025, it's not good. So I get you know from a legal standpoint and the job has to protect themselves. Like, yeah, if you are really down and you're using alcohol and coke and you are diagnosed I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and alcohol use disorder. The firearms there are lethal. All it does is take is one bad night to go on a drinking binge and we saw the studies right.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, recovery is possible and I'm living prime example. So the more we put time oh, this officer, we need to give this officer a year to get better. If he doesn't get a year, we got to fire him, but then he could be one of the best officers of your department or turn out to be something like you know, and those are the stories that we love to see. And when you put a timeline on something, that's when you start putting that peer pressure, that pressure on the individual. Like if you don't get, if you don't complete these classes or you don't get sober and get all this help, and, like you know, six months you're out. And I think that's where the failure starts. And I saw Nick's comment there, but I would love Nick really quick just to share his story on like how he met me and reps. I think it's really impactful, you know, for this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so how I met Frank and how I kind of got into responders is, you know, like I said, I started my own recovery plan and I started my sobriety journey October 9th. That's my that's my sober date 2020.
Speaker 3:And I was using a bunch of different resources to manage what I was going through Cause, like I said, full blown arrest. I was using a bunch of different resources to manage what I was going through Because, like I said, full blown arrest. I was in the newspaper, it all sucked and my sentence date was in February of 2021. And, leading up to my sentence date, every emotion that I was experiencing when I pled guilty and I was out public and I was in the paper everything came rushing back and I said I need more now. I need more resources, I need more tools on my tool belt to help me get through this, because I don't want to go backwards. Right, I've started to gain progress, I'm not going back.
Speaker 3:And I reached out to Frank and I DM'd him on the reps account and I guarantee you I have never deleted my DMs with reps, so I guarantee you it's still in there. I know it is. And I DMed him and I said, hey, man, like I see what you're doing, I like it. I'm going through some stuff. I'm not a cop anymore. I'm about to officially lose this whole career, but I need some help. And I'll never forget Frank's response as he DMs me back and he says hey, man, in my opinion you're retired early and you're welcome.
Speaker 3:And I started going through responder talk and I started going to our fundraising events and this is how I built the community and I said I want to be involved. And you know, I said earlier, like I said, I want to make a career out of this and I owe a lot of this to Frank, because he's the one that was there for me. He was the one that allowed me and gave me a platform and gave me an audience to share my story. And hadn't it, had it not been for that, I don't know where I'd be. And I forever that I can't repay to Frank and everybody reps, responders, because I truly wouldn't be where I am right now without them.
Speaker 1:I love it, brother. Nick, I appreciate you sharing tonight, and Frank too. You know we are going to have another conversation, I guarantee it. I think we should really keep this communication flow going. We need to talk about suicide. We need to talk about PTSD. We need to talk about getting fit. We need to talk about the positive aspects of giving all that shit up, because I'm telling you right now that double chin is so cool to get rid of.
Speaker 1:The love handles are so cool to get rid of. The love handles are so cool. To get rid of the 44-inch down to a 34-inch waist is great man, I could do this all day long.
Speaker 3:It's a flex.
Speaker 1:Of course, man, I got a flex about it. Okay, frank, you're up, man. Let's close this out with something positive, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, something positive. Look at, you know, three dads being the best versions of themselves. You know we didn't drink today. You know, and I think, if you can look at the positive, we always hear the stories of the officers and the statistics of this is what happens on the job and this many cops die from cardiovascular disease. But what about the cops that didn't make it right? What about the cops that did transform their life Right? Like, let's try to change our mindset and our approach with positivity and listening to stories and scrolling through positive things instead of all the negative. Cause you know, in this job, it's how some people, a lot of cops, survive and cope on that negative activity.
Speaker 2:But what if one day, just for one day, you just didn't have an agenda, you didn't have any expectations and you just went and you were just yourself? Well, how would that feel to you and to me? That's the tool I want to leave with everyone today. I think that's a positive question. Right, it's a positive statement is just for today, I'm not going to have an agenda, I'm not going to have expectation. If it's a workday, if it's a family day, I'm not going to have an agenda. I'm not going to have expectation. If it's a work day, if it's a family day, I'm not going to plan anything after work. I'm going to see where life takes me, I'm going to see where my thoughts and my feelings take me, and then that's where the real work starts. That's where we can see what's really dragging us into different directions. We're here, we're protectors, we're survivors, we're protectors, we're survivors. I think that's very positive and and we're thriving. And, uh, I couldn't have done it alone without any one of you. Um, positive, we're here, we're live out of, uh, friends of recovery, westchester here, white plains, new York. Uh, thank you to their partnership. Uh, we'm in a studio, nick is in the library and it's been amazing that Reps for Spinders has its first office space to be able to collab and do things like that.
Speaker 2:So, jay, I just want to thank you for the opportunity for coming here. We have some great. We're bringing the Rock, the River back again in October. Can't wait for that. Myself and Christina and another team member, danny, got into the New York City Marathon, so I'll be running the New York City Marathon for the first time and I can't wait to cross that finish line because I have a lot of emotions to release and running. Actually, I picked up running For all you lifters don't blacklist me but that's what recovery has been able to give me too, giving me able to take more risk and chances. Oh, you know, I don't need to do this, or I'm I, I'm okay with just doing. It gets me out of my comfort zone to try different things. Um so yeah, thank you, jay, so much. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Thanks guys. Okay, that was a pretty intense episode. I really appreciate Frank and Nick coming on. They had to get going tonight, but and we could have talked a lot more about booze we could have talked a lot more about booze. Believe me, I could have talked a lot more about booze.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things I don't want to admit. You know, I'm 52 years old. I bring up my age a lot because, man, I was drinking since I was 13. And when I was a teen, I would drink to escape. Later on in life I would drink to quelch bad feelings and try to be in good spirits all the time and I thought it would help me with my creativity. I would see Ernest Hemingway and I'd be like well, if that dude can drink. Well, that dude killed himself. The reality is he had demons and he drank too much and he killed himself. How many people have lost their life to booze? How many people have lost so much of their respect to booze? Myself included.
Speaker 1:A lot of my identity for a very long time was drinking and it's pretty tough to to think about it and to admit it I mean, I've talked about it before on the podcast but to actually sit down and say you know what? I'm never going to have a drink again is pretty tough for me. Will I ever drink again? I may, but I would much rather not, because I love this version of me that doesn't need that poison. You know, I had a former friend and we would go out and you know you'd have that smoky drink, this and that and it would be like, oh, this is so cool and that was our lifestyle. Like you know, dinner and a drink drinks drinks. You know the spicy drink, this type a drink Drinks drinks. The spicy drink, the this type of drink. But now I have someone very special to me and we go out and we don't drink. And we don't. You don't need it. That's what I'm trying to get around to. You don't need the booze to be your character. You don't need the drink to be your identity. You don't need to be spending hundreds of dollars a week on partying and booze. And I'm preaching, but I'm preaching off of experience. I'm preaching off of. There is so much more.
Speaker 1:I was mentioning that tonight about going to concerts now and being able to hear the music and to be able to be in that moment, to be able to enjoy it. And before I thought if I had to go to these concerts I would need the drink, I think I thought I needed the drink in order to get that full experience. I don't need the drink to squash the demons anymore, and now I could think about other things and seek help. So one thing we really wanted to get into tonight and I don't think we kind of ran out of time is that there is help. You can get help. You don't have to do this cold turkey. Now, one thing Frank and Nick both have is reps for responders. Every Sunday night they do rep talk, responder talk, and I've spoken on it a couple of times. But it's a really good organization. Check out reps for responders, especially if you're in the protector community. But you know AA is out there. There's so many ways you can get help. Therapy I mean work on yourself.
Speaker 1:The physical aspect we touched on that tonight too is like look, I was 300 and something pounds before and now I'm in a low 200s. I couldn't get that way if I was still drinking. So there's a lot of positives of it. But nobody's saying you have to completely stop drinking. Nobody's saying you have to ever just say I'm done forever, I have a problem. You might not have a problem, but just think about maybe one day a week, two days a week, you know, four or five, six days a week. You might want to readjust your thinking.
Speaker 1:When it comes to drinking, nobody's saying you have to give it up completely. That is one thing I don't want you to get from this whole conversation tonight. Nobody's saying that you're an alcoholic and you have to give it up completely. No, not everybody is an alcoholic and not everybody needs to give it up completely. But just take an adjustment, take just a step back and think about the positives and negatives and where you want to be. But anyway, that is. This has been one of the uh, one of the episodes I've wanted to do for a very long time and I appreciate you tuning into the protectors podcast and I do want to thank again Nick and Frank for sharing so deeply, and I'm looking forward to our next episodes, because we do need to talk about a lot of different topics that touch on the protector community, and thank you all for helping out. The protectors become what it is, take care.
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