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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
523 | Scott Howell
This episode explores the transformative journey individuals have taken from being passive to proactive in their safety and self-defense, especially during and after the COVID-19 pandemic. Our guest, Scott, shares his experiences from closing his gym to embracing the firearms world, reflecting on the cultural shift in civilian gun ownership and training needs.
• Discussing the impact of COVID-19 on personal livelihoods
• Transitioning from fitness coaching to firearms training
• The surge in civilian firearm ownership during civil unrest
• Comparing training experiences of law enforcement and civilians
• The importance of ongoing training for officers and civilians alike
• Advocating for honest and informed consumer choices in the firearms market
• Exploring community engagement through firearms training
• The significance of a personalized approach to training and preparedness
• Emphasizing the need to vet instructors and seek genuine knowledge
• Building confidence through practice in varied environments
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
Welcome to the Protectors Podcast. You know what, scott? We're going to go through this whole thing. We're going to get into a great conversation, we're going to talk about all sorts of cool things that we're never going to hit record, and about 10 minutes down the road we'd be like, hey Scott, maybe I should hit record. Yeah, then we have to redo it all. Yeah, hey Scott, welcome to the show man.
Speaker 2:Oh, Jason, I'm super stoked to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:I'm honored and you're the first person. I just I really just did hit the record button.
Speaker 2:I love the organic stuff. It's usually the best stuff ever.
Speaker 1:And you know I've been watching some of your videos and stuff and I'm like you know, I'm very interested to see how you're the first person I've actually done this in a while with was actually go back and take a look at your previous content, kind of get your backstory a little bit, and a lot of it really resonates, especially the creation of the podcast, especially with civilians going into a different space, and I love that more than you could possibly imagine as someone who's been a fed, been in the military and 30 years worth of just crap in the industry when it comes to firearms and tactics and life I shouldn't say tactics, I should say life within this space. I love seeing civilians step up. I love seeing civilians getting into this arena more than I've said it before, more than you can imagine. So, scott, welcome to the show again. Brother, let's get into it, man.
Speaker 2:I'm excited, shoot. I'm excited to see where this goes today. I'm always honored when people give me their time. I don't often get to sit on this end of the thing, so this is going to be fun for me. So, like I said, I appreciate you having me.
Speaker 1:And I think it's going to be tough for you because, like I'm doing the same whenever I get interviewed, I always want to interview back. So feel free. Feel free, and this is more of a conversation, I'm sure you know that. But you know, what really resonates about your story is the COVID-19, and I typically avoid that subject like a harp because I hated that time period. Man, but I thought about it. You had a gym that got closed down. Your livelihood, your everything. I mean based on your background, your experience, especially from that point to now, it's like you put everything into something. So if you have a gym that's organic, where you have to physically be present, and then it's taken away from you, you really have to evaluate where you're going to next.
Speaker 2:It was a tough time, that is for sure.
Speaker 2:I mean it hurt financially, it hurt emotionally, physically, it took its toll on me and my employees and my partner. And, yeah, it was a rough time, on top of all the other things that were going on, you know, having your business taken away, along with a lot of other liberties and things that were happening at that time. It was. It was rough and, like you said it, and you wanting to not talk about it and forget about it, I would really love to do that too, but I am still and I'm not a victim I would I never take that role, but we're still dealing with the aftermath of that and we will be for a very long time. So it's very tough to just say, oh, you know, that happened in the past, because it's still very present to us and it's certainly a huge part of this journey with the podcast which you've alluded to there and you know, it really isn't that far in the past when you think about the big thing and about, if it didn't happen, how your business could have scaled.
Speaker 2:Absolutely could have scaled. Yeah, so that's one of the parts about this is, I absolutely could have scaled plan. We were already 10 years into the business of blood, sweat, tears. You know rough times, good times, rough times, more rough times, a couple of good times, you know, whatever, we were kind of coming out of a of a, an expansion phase that we had done just three years before and, um, you know, effectively we went from like 600 square feet to like 1800 square feet, with another with an initial expansion, and then we moved locations and we've had 6 like 600 square feet to like 1800 square feet, with another with an initial expansion, and then we moved locations and we've had 6,000 square feet and the and the, the.
Speaker 2:The simple fact of the matter is you have to put butts in the seats and this is an org, the, the business we run is is personalized services, so it means building relationships and keeping those relationships and nurturing those relationships over time. And keeping those relationships and nurturing those relationships over time. And we had done that and worked very, very hard, scraped, clawed, kicked, fought, maybe cheated a little bit here or there, and you know that being in the state of California and being shut down, it's. All of that crumbles very, very fast when people can't come to your location and get the services that you're providing. So, on top of many, many other things that were going on, so it's still very raw, man, it's still very raw, but we're coming out the other side. We're still doing it, we're attempting. We've made a lot of pivots and a lot of changes and certainly, you know, the podcast was a big part of that too.
Speaker 1:My favorite word, pivot. Right there, brother, right there, brother. That's my last book was pivot Right. So you know, and you have to, you have to adjust, and that's one thing I like about you went into a different space because you saw reality. When we get into our little bubbles, when we get into these echo chambers, sometimes we don't understand what's going on around us. Now you see a physical location, and a physical location that's yours, that, hey, you know what If that physical location goes away? That is my livelihood, that's my life, that's my lifeline. And then you find out that, hey, you know what. You look around and there's only one protector in the room and that's you. So were you involved in any way into the firearms industry, the training space, or you just had basic knowledge, or were you training or what?
Speaker 2:uh, I had basic knowledge at best, you know, like a lot of americans. But I was also surprised to find that this is not the case of a lot of Americans. You know it's somewhere along the line you come in contact with those, whether it's through your family In my case it was my dad, you know, my uncles or whatever that you know had. They were very, very much about their second amendment rights. You know and serve their country. There was a connection to that. They were passing that on to the, to the kids, particularly me, and so I'd had a very basic understanding and you know, I was confident and comfortable. But from a training perspective, from a practical application perspective outside of, you know, maybe hitting a deer at 150 yards, or, you know, hitting beer cans with. Know, whatever, whatever pistols, whatever rifles my, my family brought out to the range, my friends brought out to the range? No, absolutely not. And that was a.
Speaker 1:That was a harsh reality at a time where things got let's just say they got pretty weird yeah, pretty weird is right, because you said, you know, listening to one of your podcasts about how you were sitting there and you know you have your firearm with your pistol and you're like, huh, if something happens in your mind, you think, hey, this is great, I got a gun, I can sit at the table. Someone comes in, I'll point it at them. What if they have a gun? Or what if they have a weapon? Or what if they don't have anything? I mean seriously. Someone approaches you and someone says I'm going to kick your ass and you got a gun. It's not like you just be like, hey, you know what, I'm going to shoot them. It's like the movies, but it's not. It's not like the movies at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such an interesting mindset coming into it. I think again, the short version on that is just the business was shut down. That happens in about February of 2020. George Floyd, events happen that summer around june. Things are getting weird and in cities around the nation. I live a couple blocks from the gym. At the time we're in the downtown, very metro area uh, of the city of san jose. Uh, things started kind of heat up in front of city hall, which is only a couple miles from my front door, literally on the same street. We're just down the street law enforcement. As soon as the first dumpster got lit on fire, hats off to law enforcement here in our city. They handled it decisively and they're still paying a heavy price for how they handled that. In my opinion my non-expert, yet opinion as a citizen was they did an outstanding job because that was over pretty quick. But what it meant was they started to push people out and they started to come down in front of the building.
Speaker 2:I was sitting at home watching all this happen on the news, watching all the you know, all the things happening in all the cities and while San Jose was nowhere near what was happening in a lot of other places in the country. Uh, to the extent or the intensity that it was going on it, I was scared, I was concerned and again, I was watching my business go down in financial ruin in a short period of time. We were doing everything we could to keep it together, not close the doors. Pay our employees, pay ourselves. What the heck are we going to do? Try to get an online business going, because we were putting together an outdoor gym at that time, which was a total nightmare. You know all that. We were trying to kind of play by the rules, to to fly under the radar, which was hard. There's a lot of things happening. And anyways, yes, I wound up down in front of my or inside my front window of my building, sitting inside the lobby, going I can't watch my building burn down, not after all of this. So, yes, I grabbed a couple of firearms, sat inside and was basically just to be a deterrent.
Speaker 2:But to your point and that was the epiphany, it was like what the heck am I doing here and what would I do if and I had a lot of experiences in my life doing a lot of things, but nothing like that before and it was more than just having the firearm, and what might happen if somebody pulls one on me or decides to use one, or I have to use it. It was also other things that I hadn't thought about. It was man. I just left my family sitting on the couch at home, which is two blocks away from here. What am I doing here? Like, and how are they prepared? Like, I'm down here defending business and potentially myself, but what about my family? What did I just do?
Speaker 2:There was all of these things that came up for me which then thrust me into. I got to figure this out. I need to be a student and learn a few things, and that's that's where my journey started, in kind of the genre of firearms, firearms, training, preparedness, a bit more around combatives, combatives. You know all the things that a protector or you know somebody that wants to be prepared for really what could ever hit them in life in the side of the head, like this, had. What do you got to do? What should I be doing? I thought I knew, but man, was I man? Was I wrong? I was just a baby in the whole thing.
Speaker 1:You know we're going to get into that later on about being a baby in this whole thing, because you're going to find and you know this, but from interviewing a lot of people and a lot of my audience knows this too is like there's a lot of LEOs who their only training has been the academy. But we'll get into that in a minute Cause one thing I do want to go back to is that timeframe was a shift. You know. I guess a personal story for me is you know, I've been around guns for my whole life, training and stuff like that, but I always wanted to be an instructor. I always wanted to be a coach. So I go in in 2000,. Was it 2019? One of those 2000 was when I actually took the basic. In order to become an instructor, you have to take the NRA course. So I go in there and I'm sitting around, I'm looking at this room and I'm like a shift in our culture.
Speaker 1:At that point there were some people you know, 60, 70 years old. In the background there was three or four people in a and you could imagine what kind of demographics we're looking at here in their front who were like purple hair. They were this, they were that there was no in that room. You could not, you couldn't say there was one demographic at all, it was everybody. And everybody in that point figured out. You know what. There is only one protector, and if I don't know what the hell I'm doing with this tool, then that tool is going to be turned on me or I'm shit out of luck. So the protector mentality really does come in. And when you think about your family at home, shit out of luck. So the protector mentality really does come in. And when you think about your family at home, I was the same way, man, even you know, leo and etc. I I had guns ready because you just didn't know the proximity to anything.
Speaker 2:So but taking it to the next step, I commend you with that, oh, thanks man, I, I think, um, I recognize the exact same thing, particularly here in the Silicon Valley or the Bay Area. There was a very interesting shift in living in the state of California when those events happened and how people basically had this again, this coming to Jesus, if you will, of like whoa and the cliche starts. You know nobody's coming to save you, you need to save yourself, and that you could use that as a cliche or not, but it is true, there's truth in that and a lot of people recognize that it was. It was wild to see the uptick in gun ownership in California. Just ask any gun manufacturer out there. They made a lot of money on the state of California and have since, not that they weren't already, but there was a huge uptick. My firearms dealer friends here in town were. It was insane, right. And the cultures that were adopting that protector mentality and recognizing all these things at the same time was interesting, particularly here in the Silicon Valley the Asian culture.
Speaker 2:And then there was this connection back to what had happened in April of 1992 with the riots and the Rodney King riots and what was happening and I was. I was alive for that and around for that. I'm not. I'm old enough to remember that vividly.
Speaker 2:I was in high school and I watched that happen on TV and you had the quote unquote rooftop Asians that were protecting their businesses and what you were seeing was kind of a resurgence of that, and what that did was obviously drive a lot more awareness to training, the importance of it, and then people were being exposed to all kinds of stuff. Some of it was good, some of it was not so good, and that's where I found myself in the middle going well, how do I? Where do I go, like? Where's the best place for this? Do I go to the guy who sat in the class and got the NRA instructors thing? Or do I go to the guy who wore this funny hat with a Trident or a you know a patch on it? You know, uh, over here that has all this experience from you know being, you know, a 20-year war veteran or whatever the case was.
Speaker 1:So it was a lot to take in man, and everybody, I think, was doing that at the same time I think we're still doing it because the gun industry exploded and you know, finding and vetting and and training with someone is tough. It is really tough, man, and you know I was gonna we'll go into the story now is that the best training I had for firearms was with the Border Patrol. You know, because in the military I was an infantry officer and artillery when I was enlisted but it wasn't like you know, we're going to do complex firearms training. You're getting a basic training. It lets you go with the active duty and you're doing it all the time. But when you're talking about LEO firearms training, I go on a border patrol. Great training, badass, loved it.
Speaker 1:Uh, go on to become a special agent training was, you know, you're really it's like a college campus type experience, but it's still basic firearms principles.
Speaker 1:You're going to get a little bit advanced in there, but after that academy you're done. You'll you'll qualify every quarter and the fed's a lot different than locals. But then when you get into local law enforcement you're finding out that a lot of the only training these officers ever had was the academy and then they consider their qualification training and that's like maybe once or twice a year. So when everybody, when you get to some of these instructors or you get around people like, yeah, I'm a cop on this and that, but then they stale me, they never went past anything else. But then you get into the civilian and you're looking at, like you know, someone like yourself who's going to training constantly, are learning from people constantly and keeping that spigot open so you can learn as much as you can. You're finding a lot of times that civilian instructors may have a lot more experience than someone just because they carry a gun. Very true.
Speaker 2:Very true. There were a lot of realizations that happened as I started entering into the space. I had a lot of time on my hands, my business was closed and I felt a deep sense of urgency to learn as much as I could, as quick as I could, but also making the connection between being a coach in the fitness business and that's what I did for so many years understanding and studying how the coaches or the trainers, instructors, were teaching classes, what they were teaching human, you know, or adult learning models, how information was being presented, how that transferred over to the actual performance and human performance and bringing it all together I found it very interesting and it was kind of easy for me to kind of pick out right away like who seemed to have a really good sense of this and on how to deliver information to people and on this huge mark, all these different market segments, as you've already alluded to. And I was picking stuff up like I'm going to this course or I'm going to this, you know, range day, or a few guys are going out to the range and there's a couple of cops, you know, on my right and then on this side there's this banker dude right, and then there's this mechanic, right, and then there's this lady who single mom, over here, who just picked up a firearm three or four months ago and started by herself and has now got enough confidence to come to the range with this group of dudes.
Speaker 2:And I was like, wow, what is the disconnect here? So that took me down another rabbit hole, trying to understand, you know that, that culture or that the business of policing, the business of training, and, to your point, like, okay, so they, they understand how the thing works, but they're not very good at it. And this is not to bash police officers, I want to be very clear about that. But, to your point, they were given what they were given and that was it. So why wasn't it better? And so that again led me down quite a deep rabbit hole in trying to understand that more. And, as it turns out, there's a lot of people that certainly agree that it should be better, and I wanted to talk to them about it and we just kept having these conversations as I was going through my training.
Speaker 1:Now you're allowed to bash on the system because and the other thing you're finding out is when you go to this training you're finding a certain people that are there because they want to train, they want to be better. But one realization of me getting into the Fed world and getting into the LEO world and being around a lot of cops is I've always been kind of like someone that shoots. I'm the only one in my family that's ever been like a shooter. I love guns, I love shooting, I love plinking, I love whatever. But when you get in there you always imagine that, hey, you know what. They're becoming a cop. They got to be proficient, they got to know what the hell is going on. But you're finding out.
Speaker 1:Policing is a profession, it's not just a profession and that's one of your tools and you may not always be as proficient as everybody else using that tool, or you may have never used one ever before, which is you'll find a lot of that in these academies. That is very true. And then when you get out there, you're like huh, the instructors. So I worked for a major fed police department before this past year because I was trying to become more proficient of an instructor. So I was like eh, you know, I'm retired, I'll take a contracting gig. So I went to work for a fed police department and I found out that they are given a limited amount of training and you only have like one instructor per seven eight students for like one week. You know, this is when I get out of the academy and you're like, wow, man, as an instructor I have to go around each person and understand what their fundamentals are and where they're at, but you only have a limited amount of time. They get out onto the street and then firearms aren't part of the FTO program. It's not like, hey, you know what, and if any department out there is doing it, please get in touch with me because I'd love to talk to you about it.
Speaker 1:But part of the FTO program is like, hey, how to encounter people, how to do arrests, how to do this, how to do that, but there's no more advanced, there's no more like hey, you know what? This is part of your FTO program. One day a week we're going to practice on your fundamentals, we're going to practice on dry fire, we're going to practice on all the other aspects of it, but there's not that. So when you get out there with these civilians like yourself, and when I went out there and worked with the civilians, it's like huh, these civilians want to be there. They are learning all day. This is their one job they don't have. They're not a cop who has to worry about legal stuff and medical and all this. All they care about is, hey, you know what? I want to learn how to use this tool. I want to learn to the best of my ability and damn, I'm a good shot and a cop's like. Oh man, you know, uh, I know my fundamentals, but I don't know how to push myself past the fundamentals yet.
Speaker 2:No, they're not given that skill. And again, the it's. Somebody brought this up on a pod on one of the podcasts that I did with him and he said imagine if you only went to the gym and lifted weights two times a year, you know how good are you going to be at that. How strong are you going to be. How are you good, are you? Or how good are you going to be at that any year from now? Right, if you just do it those two times? I mean, it's a, it's an obvious. You know it's a rhetorical question, but the that that was what I was gathering was the limitations that exist, that are, that are placed on them. There may be placed on them by the agency that they work for, the situation that they happen to be in, but also the limitations they put on themselves or that they have that have been created for them in their mind or by not exploring it more. But to your point, I think what the key there was is they don't know how to train. It's not that they don't have the ability to train, it's that they don't know how to train.
Speaker 2:And going back to my instructor experience, one of the things that I wanted to take away every time I went to a course was what am I leaving this course with? Like, first off, why am I coming? What skills am I trying to obtain? Or knowledge am I trying to get? But then, how am I going to take what I learned and then apply this in practice so that I can improve and I don't believe that's a big part of the police culture practice so that I can improve, and I don't believe that's a big part of the police culture. If we're talking about law enforcement, it's, it's more of a. We have a curriculum, we teach this thing. We tick the box to say that we've done this thing. Namaste, have a good day. You're good to go. The next step for you is the FTO program is in your example. You go out there, you do the do these things. And the bigger piece of this is when you look at the skills that, like a law enforcement needs to have or needs to be really honed in on. Going out on the street every day, like obviously, being proficient with that firearm is going to be one of those things, but how often are you actually practicing or doing that thing on your job? Now to your point knowing the law right, and how do you, how do you properly enforce that? Were you getting practice every day with all of these situations and you learn something a little bit new and you apply what you learned from the last thing to the next thing, maybe multiple times a day.
Speaker 2:Driving as a skill? Well, you're in a car every day. You're already know how to drive, but from like a uh, like a uh, like a high speed, or uh or um, you know high speed, chase or defensive or offensive driving, like. How do you do that? Well, you're kind of doing that all the time. The one thing they're not doing all the time is, again, you can talk about defensive tactics, combatives, hands-on skill. They, they should, they are doing that every day, but they're getting no additional training to be good at it. It's the same thing with the farms. This was all fascinating to me, because I think it's reasonable for a citizen to expect that the police officers that are sworn to protect and serve have a certain level of skill and a certain level of you mentioned the term professionalism to want to improve that skill and I wasn't seeing that. I was like why? Why is that? This is odd to me, but I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot.
Speaker 1:There's two things I really want to touch on. You have to remind me as trainer and coach. But one thing when you brought up, like you know, proficiency in firearms and I love that Just shoot the gun on it, shoot the knife out of his hand, shoot him in the leg. Listen, one thing I've learned is that and I think this should be a requirement and it would suck, but I really do think it needs to be a requirement that if you have a law enforcement target and you have a silhouette, all of your bullets need to be within that silhouette.
Speaker 1:And if you have it, it's a deduction. And if you have it, it's a. It's a deduction because I tell these people I'm like you know, I'm like, look. I tell the officers I'm like, look, if you miss, where is that? You're in a crowded area or we're in washington dc area. That bullet is going to hit someone else. Your, your target needs to have all. I don't care if it's in the arm or wherever, but all the bullets need to be within target.
Speaker 1:Proficiency in law enforcement is hit or miss. You're a lot of instruction has that. You're on a flat range. You've got a paper target in front of you. You're not moving left or right because you got someone to your left or right and you're drawing and you're fine. You're getting on your knees. You're not siding to the left, to the right or anything.
Speaker 1:You're staying on an X, you're firing at a target and you're in and out of there in 20, 30 minutes and cause, you got a million different things to do. You don't have time to sit around and go. Hell man, I wish I could sit around and train all day. You're like oh, dude, I got to report, I got to go pick my kid up, I got to do this, I got to do that. So when you're talking proficiency, you know when you're having like a hundred percent of the people let's say you have 100 of people on range and you're getting 70 percent are calling on the first time and then you got to stick around for the other 30 because it takes them two or three times to qualify on the simplest course of fire, with no stress, with no movement, with a target going out to 25 yards, 25 meters. This is tough, this is the reality of law enforcement, firearms training and and hey, I can't fault them because it's a check to block- yeah, it is the reality.
Speaker 2:It's a harsh one and it's a very frustrating one, and so I talk about that a lot on the show, with a lot of different people from the industry or in abroad about it, whether they're coaches, civilians now, or instructors or people that are in law enforcement. A lot of law enforcement officers come on and we talk, uh, but to your point, like a lot of citizens that are into firearms training or coaching, they're on the show too. Well, we're talking about qualifications and standards and how that leads to proficiency and what are we actually trying to get good at, or what are we actually trying to get good at, or what are we actually trying to get accomplished? And setting those, setting a goal that sets somebody up for success and I think the when it comes in general, this is not every department, and I've actually had some really good experiences with some agencies and people that work for agencies that that are pushing a change. They are, they are making some significant impacts and changes and with the understanding that it's not consistent anywhere, there is no standard qual, there is no standard. There's not a standard qualification, there's not a set of standards anywhere that's consistent across the board, and I think that's a cultural problem. I think that there there needs to be some agreement made there and it's going to take some time to get there. I recognize it's a complex issue to try to tackle.
Speaker 2:But to your point, what are we actually preparing these people for and what is the? What is the value? What are the goals and values? Alignment with that? If we are, if the goal is just to get them to pass a test, man, anybody standing on that line that I would have gone out there with, with a lot of these instructors, even if they'd never touched a gun, I would venture to say that if they had four to six hours of instruction from I've never touched a gun in my life to passing some of these police quote unquote standards or qualifications for firearms could do it. They could do it, especially if you give them an extra three chances to do it after they failed at the first time. To me that's unacceptable. But at the same time we have to accept it because that's what it is. But now, how do we change it? And again, what are we preparing them for? If that's what we're preparing them for, then we should.
Speaker 2:These are humans, man Like when they go out on the street and they have stuff to do. No, no, almost no, no uh officer involved, shootings are from a static position. They're near. Nearly a hundred percent of them are dynamic, which means there's some type of movement, either by the suspect so that's the paper target that isn't moving or by the officer right who is standing on a firing line following a very specific set of instructions, can't even pick up his mags until everybody else is finished and we've gone, thumbs up and whatever else. And I I get there needs to be safety, right, we need to, we need to look out for things, but then how does that translate to their job on a daily basis? I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to understand how. What a disconnect exists there. And I I feel bad for, uh, those that are involved in that situation, that that have to somehow find a workaround rather than have a, have an agency, change it from the top down. It has to be changed internally and almost from the bottom up.
Speaker 1:There's something in that. And then what we're talking about is called tests. There's always a test and you know when I was a kid man, listen you give me a math test. I'm horrible, I seriously I am the worst person in math you could possibly imagine. Give me all the degrees in the world, but if you tell me how to do basic math, I'm like screwed. And everybody out there listen my kids. They're better at math than I am because I didn't teach them.
Speaker 1:But test anxiety is a thing and this what happens is because you're a law leo and you have two to four to one qualification a year and this may be your only time picking up there like really shooting your weapon outside, you know, because you don't want to train, because this mental thing in your head is that if I don't go and take this test I'm going to lose my job. So you get test anxiety. I found out when I was doing one-on-one coaching with some of these officers actually, I would say, like 99% of the officers I was doing one-on-one coaching with and I added stress to the variable and I didn't teach him how to do a qualification. I put up a different target than the silhouette. They were hammering it. They were hammering it when you put them under stress. But teaching them how to shoot under stress and taking out that variable, the test, you have to get them out of that situation. And this is where I like the idea of having coaches and teaching it. And this is the I love the variable where you're coming from, with the gym and trainers.
Speaker 1:You're training each individual Like listen, I'm 52 years old, I can't train like a 20 year old. If my trainer tells me to go in there and train like a 20 year old, my body's done Right. You know, I can't run worth a shit, I got lung problems, blah, blah, blah. I can't do that stuff. But the same thing with the firearms is you need to look at everybody and tailor make, tailor made, tailor make a program for them. So someone with your background, let's say, you get all the training, experience and knowledge. You become an instructor. But then your knowledge isn't just that firearms tool.
Speaker 2:No-transcript there's, there's many layers to this. So you use the term test and the anxiety that comes along with having to take a test and evaluation, and this maybe not for your listeners, but I know for a lot of mine. They were shocked when we started to kind of expose this stuff with the in these conversations, which was really the only time they're ever really being tested is actually in the academy. That's the only time they're being tested, because when you think about it and I think you have to look at the context of the test, like what happens if you fail? What are the consequences of failing the test? There's a pass-fail, right, you get a grade, or there's a pass-fail. The only time you really need to be worried about losing your job or not getting the job is in the academy, because after that nobody's being fired, nobody's losing their job for not passing the. They're given another chance, they're given eight more chances.
Speaker 2:I was, I was. I was at an agency where a person failed the. This officer failed the academy two times and I say officer because she finally got through it then failed the call, uh, and for five sorry for firing the firearms call. Then got through that and then the second time and failed again 13 more times 13 more times for finally passing. So did you pass a test? Or did you just get lucky, I don't know? Or did you? You know you've taken it enough times. Now you're just gaming the thing and there's probably a little bit of chance, plus maybe a little bit of improvement, plus a little bit of the knowns that you now understand, to maybe pass this particular test, only for that officer to then quit two months later during the FTO program. Um, so, again going back to tests and standards and test anxiety, like at what point are you being really tested? Uh, okay, so you look at that as as a layer, but then what's the ultimate test? Right, and I never like to try to bring up scenarios where, but you don't need to just turn on the internet, right?
Speaker 2:Look at these officer involved shootings, look at the things that are happening out there on the street. And again, I want to be clear there are some really good things happening out there on the street. I mean I can. I can name three this week that I've seen. I was like that officer was on it. There was a, there was one specifically from Phoenix, arizona, that I watched. It was outstanding guy ended up, moving to his rifle, hit a guy from about 50 yards away, um, from a semi-unstable position. It was awesome. There was another dude who was down and I think was in santa ana, um, california, where a guy was holding his, his grandmother, uh, with at knife point to her. I saw that guy had to take a headshot. That's outstanding.
Speaker 2:We never see that stuff, right, right, or we very rarely do. People aren't looking for that. They're looking for where did this human mess up, right, and how horrible did they do? And all the things that they could have done differently. In every one of those situations something could have been done differently, but they're always looking for that stuff. So again, even with that, unless there's something egregious, even with that, unless there's something egregious, right, the poor qualification is not going to be the thing that that person, or the standard, the low level of standard, the very low metric that they have to meet, is not going to be the reason that person loses their job.
Speaker 2:So again, that's a thing I think people need to understand is that this testing and feeling nervous or whatever else like where should you be? You shouldn't be nervous about this test, especially when the metrics are as low as they are. You should be nervous about, if anything. You should be nervous about, like what did, what is this test missing from it and how does it? How does that apply to the things that I may actually have to do into the street, cause I don't want to. I don't want to be taking a test. Then, right, I want to. I want that, that, that that, to be automatic. So you know, that's a little bit of a soapbox. I apologize for going on no, not at all.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of layers to that no, that's the thing is like okay, so you may not get fire and you may lose, you know, access to your firearm until you qualify again when you're given 50 different chances. One thing I in this industry is I've noticed, and you've noticed it too, is that everybody kind of wants to skip from basic to operator. Oh my, you know this. This has been driving me nuts lately. I want to, so I'm I'm developing two things that I really want to do. I want to have a course called the protector course, and what this is is going to be for, like you, you know, before you became knowledgeable. I shouldn't say I mean it's for people who are knowledgeable too, but it'd be like hey, look, you know you have a family, you need to protect your family. Your family comes first. So the protector course would be this It'd be basic firearms skills.
Speaker 1:So you know, you have a skill, basic drawing. We'll do a little little thing where we can show that, hey, you could draw from your holster, and if you can't draw from a holster yet, you get proficient and we'll start it a little ready. But the thing is basics three to seven yards, maximum 15 yards. How to identify yourself so you don't get shot by someone else? Basic medical stuff. Hey, this is a tourniquet. If you're going to carry a firearm, do you know how to identify yourself so you don't get shot by someone else? Basic medical stuff. This is a tourniquet. If you're going to carry a firearm, do you know how to use it? But just a basic firearms course, a basic protector course, and there's more to it. But the other thing is I want for LEOs and this is one thing that's been on my mind a lot, and I want to put this course together because we see a lot of these in and around vehicle courses that are interesting, that I'm not going to get into because I don't really feel like, uh, that's a whole everybody holy shit, but I want a course
Speaker 1:like. You are approaching the vehicle, someone gets out quick. They don't have a knife in their hand, they don't have anything in their hand. You approach a vehicle, they get out real quick. They have a gun in their hand. You approach a vehicle quick, they have a gun in their hand. You approach a vehicle real quick, they have a knife in their hand. Two people, three people, but in and around vehicles. You go up and you're doing the approach on the window, someone in the back seat takes a pop shot at you. Someone in the front seat draws and fires at you.
Speaker 1:I want, I want LEO courses that are in and around vehicles, that are dynamic, that aren't like hey, you know what? Um, they're not. You're inside your vehicle, something happens. Yes, that can happen. But the main priority needs to be your approach to that vehicle and anything in and around it. That guy, girl jots off to the left, they get behind you.
Speaker 1:How are you going to draw that weapon? Engage or draw that weapon and get to a spot where you can engage. That's what I want. But you're seeing a lot, lot in the LEO community where it's like okay, I know how to shoot, bro man, I've been doing this for five years. I know what the hell I'm doing. I'm beyond basic. I want to get nods on and I want to do one person CQB and it's like if I could count how many CQB courses are out there and how many nod courses are out there right now. I want someone to be able to draw that, that weapon and engage under a maximum amount of duress in seven meters so yeah, I mean I know there's a lot there, but there's a lot there's again.
Speaker 2:There's levels and layers to everything, right? Uh, the vehicle thing, and you alluded to something. There is that people are trying to be, you know, jumping into, like give me the operators, course I need to be doing six man CQB or I need to be shooting out of the windshield of a car or whatever else, cause they see that and they go. I drive a car, you know I own a house. It has doorways and hallways. You know, this is this seems something like I could have. There may be some application there, for sure.
Speaker 2:But going back to all the things we have already talked about, what has to be happening? There are so many things happening in those, to your point, that dynamic environment. What absolutely has to be happening in the background is the shooting right, and that's going to come down to speed and accuracy, and that is built through fundamentals. And the problem is and I could draw so many analogies and I like to use the fitness ones, because that's just who I am, I'm a fitness dude, right, who's been doing that for so long You're trying to jump into the deep end and major in the minors when you haven't even accomplished the basics. It's crawl, walk, run type of thing, but people want to start rolling around a little bit and then automatically get into a sprint, and there's so many things that have to go on there. So when you start adding in these dynamic things for people, it needs to be and this is what I was seeing right when I was going out and training is people were just jumping in because this course was available, but they had skipped so many steps in the process. And so I would ask instructors hey, what does the curriculum building look like for you? How have you chosen this particular curriculum and how does it fit in to the other curriculum that you might be teaching, setting people up for success here, or is this just an experience? Because there's a big difference between training and coaching you alluded to that earlier, I think and then providing experiences. I think people need experiences. So one of the most valuable experiences that I had that I thought I saw officers get was purely based around the experience. There was not a lot of time to teach skill, but there was an exposure to an experience that reinforced how important understanding those basic fundamentals and skills are, and it wasn't just about shooting to your points like being aware of certain things that exist out there.
Speaker 2:What are the most common things? Let's start with the most common things. Let's not build some weird you know end of the world scenario or something that is just you know it's concocted and could it happen, yes, but what's the highest potential? What are? Where are? Where should we be putting the most value, you know, in our, or focusing on the things which are? What are the things that have the most value in this particular situation and how we set people up for success?
Speaker 2:I think that's where a lot of instructors I'm using air quotes have failed and they've chased a dollar, something sexy, something to build their business or whatever else. So I like what you're saying there about having these levels of who are you, where are you coming into this and how does this apply to you? I need to understand that, as the coach or instructor, we have a framework that we teach in or in a curriculum that we teach. How do we adjust? Is it flexible, right? Does it have flexibility for the people that are in front of us?
Speaker 2:And again, if you've only ever had quote, unquote instruction, maybe through the military or law enforcement, they miss all of that. They don't because they have boxes to tick right and it's like you're here, you need to, we need to tick this box for you. So this is how we do it, because this is how we've always done it, you know, or whatever Again, a lot of layers to that. So I mean, I picked that up right away as a coach and somebody who's built businesses and built training programs for people and gets people ready for specific events or you know, just to be healthier and more fit Like, how does it all work for people? People are confused by that, consumers have been confused and they've been sold a lot of things because they don't understand it. It's an underdeveloped why? It's an underdeveloped sense of basic fundamentals or knowledge and they need more of that. So we need more people thinking like that and I think that's one of the points you were hitting there.
Speaker 1:I think that we're going to see more of that, because I think and God knows I'm not going to get into this topic because it drives me absolutely batshit. Crazy is, uh, the influencer types and the the. You know you can shoot really cool on a minute and 30 seconds. I do the same thing sometimes. I'll put up these videos. I'm like man, I look pretty good. I don't always and I believe me, I sometimes I uh I don't put up the ones where I've realized you'd like shit, you know, and.
Speaker 1:But the thing is, when you have the civilian market looking for an instructor, there's really no way to vet them. I mean, listen, we have. I mean, you are into this business, you're into this, you interview people, you know people, but people, but the majority of the civilians who say, hey, you know what I got to take this to the next level. I can shoot, but I want to take this to the next level they look up and all of a sudden they say, oh, that guy's vouching for this guy, he's got 2 million followers and you're like that doesn't mean he's a good instructor or a good coach.
Speaker 2:Man. Here comes one of those fitness analogies. So, when I started in the fitness business, this was well. Well, we had internet, but it was very not what it is now. Right, there was no instagram. There was no windows 95. Man, yeah, it was. Yeah, we were working. Actually, the first company, a big company I worked for, we were still working on a dos system until we moved over, um, but the point of that being is, if you wanted to, if you were one of those people right, you're one of those. Hey, I know I need to do this. This is important fitness. I need to get healthier. I want to be more fit. I want to look better with my clothes off, whatever the thing is right. Where do you go? You go to the gym. If you're a savvy consumer and you want to get the most return on your investment, it would be wise for you to hire a coach to get you started at least in the right direction, point you in the right direction and learn a few things and experience a few things.
Speaker 2:And so what would you do? You go to the gym. What we had were these walls with all the bios the trainer bios, you know up there with the pictures, right, and they had their resumes there and they told a little story about themselves. Some guys had their shirts off, some of the gals were you know, they're in their bikinis or their swimsuits on stage for some bodybuilding show. And how did you pick a? How did, how did a lot of these consumers pick a coach?
Speaker 2:I like the way that one looks, or, you know, this one makes sense to me because they've gotten lean and that's what I want to do, or whatever the case is, and that's how people are being picked. Well, now you have the internet and it's just compounded all of that kind of business. And so for an unaware consumer who has an underdeveloped why and a very low level of knowledge to start, it's a terrifying place for that person to be entering in, a very confusing place for them to be entering to try and figure this out. And he said that word vet because the instructors have been saying this for a long time. And so now I have consumers. Vet your instructors, vet your instructors to your point. Okay, how do I do that? I don't even know what I'm looking at here, this dude, this dude's bio.
Speaker 2:He says he's an instructor. He's an instructor because he wrote it in his bio. Right, that's that's what I know. Right, but he again wore. But he again wore. This beret worked on this team, has this many years in law enforcement, whatever else.
Speaker 2:It's reasonable to expect that an unknowing and unassuming consumer is going to look at that and go that sounds good to me. That should be right. And then you couple that with some really cool sexy shooting videos. You know, or you're running around on the, you know, you're running around on the range doing stuff and it you know running and running and gunning, right, that makes it.
Speaker 2:I think conventional wisdom would say, yes, that is what I'm, probably what I should be looking for, and the reality of it is it's not. It in most cases it's not. And, uh, that's a harsh, harsh reality for people to find out someday, and maybe even in their process of like, oh, I've chosen this guy and now I'm in this camp and I'm in this tribe or this faction, right, and I feel like I'm part of something now, like I'm in the cool kids club, right, so to speak, and I've had and I've gotten a little bit better and whatever. And then you're faced with seeing or hearing something like vet, your instructors, and these are the guys that are selling you snake oil and you're trying. You're going like, oh man, that kind of sounds like my instructor, but no, no, no, that can't be the case, right. And so they just dig in harder, right.
Speaker 2:And then they're faced, maybe, with the reality someday that they got really less than good instruction, less than great foundational fundamentals, and then they have to make a decision and that's just another terrifying place for them to be. It's like what do I do now? Like this is my tribe, these are my people, this is what I've adopted, I have all this equipment because this guy told me to buy it right, or all the guys on the range, or all the people on the range that I was training with, had all this stuff and that seemed right to me. And now I'm have questions when do I go to get those answers? To your point, there is a shift happening and we're starting to see that get better and I think the industry at large is kind of cleaning itself up a bit by from people that are really doing a good job, talking about it in the right kind of way, understanding how people receive information and demonstrating that for them through verbal, visual stuff and then collaborating. I've seen a lot of that happening which was not happening before.
Speaker 1:And then collaborating. I'm seeing a lot of that happening now, which was not happening before. It was everybody. All these guys were playing it really close to the chest and not wanting to credit and not wanting to get involved in these collaborative efforts or whatever. Now you're starting to see that happen and I think that's an't matter what tab you had, what beret you had, what anything.
Speaker 1:It's like I've seen a ton of civilian instructors out there who are solid Yep, who are like hey, you know what, and like the one who taught me my basic course and then got my instructor course was like a female, no, LEO, no, nothing, calm and coached me. Because I'm like, hey, I know what I'm doing, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, hey, listen, I'm not I. Back then I was maybe a little pigheaded, but now I'm like, okay, you know what, but you're right, it's like you're seeing a different shift and I think a lot of people are seeing it now and it's a true. It's like vetting. How do you know how to vet? I mean, really, you see the social media, you see this, you see that word of mouth, um, but yeah, and the equipment thing. Man, I, let's talk about equipment here. It's my favorite thing, the edc. I fucking love when people say this is my edc and they show like this full size, sick 320 legion that weighs like five pounds, it's got optics on it, it's got a under light and it's got there. They carry around three mags and they carry a fixed blade, a foldable, and they got like a flash bang in her back pocket. All of it.
Speaker 1:I, um, you know what I tell people. I'm like look, I have different guns for different scenarios. I got my movie theater gun, which is now it's a glock 48. Um, I'm going to get some groceries. I got a damn smith bodyguard 380 with seven shots, because I know I'm going to be able to wear that in sweatpants or shorts. I know I'm going to carry it. Listen, I'm going to get hate for it, but it's the truth. I know I'm going to carry it.
Speaker 1:I can't carry a full-size gun all the time. I can't. I'm not as heavy as I used to be, but when I was really heavy it was tough to stick a damn gun in my hip. That you're not going to roll around with fanny packs, but the the thing is they get online. You're like oh man, that guy's carrying this, that girl's carrying this, I gotta carry that, and you know well, just as well as I do, that the industry is like this a new gun comes out, they send about 20 or 30, amount to influencers and then it's next big thing. Yep, every reality, every time, every single time yeah it.
Speaker 2:I mean that, again, there's layers right To all of those you talk about that the reason they're they're sticking that you know, five and a half inch gun in their pants is because somebody told them that's what they should do. Right, this is. This is not something that most consumers are generally coming up on their own, in my opinion. They're taking that advice, they're being influenced to do that by someone or somewhere, and the gun you put in your retention holster or your competition holster and take to the range to do certain things is not the same gun you're likely putting in your pants. When you talk to people that carry whether it's for a living or carry period that are responsible gun owners, responsible American gun owners that actually train, it's a whole other thing, right, like, just because you stick in a gun in your pants doesn't mean you're proficient at using it. So the point of this being is, people are confused and, yes, when they do it long enough, where they they start to, they start to realize a few things. That's when this confusion kind of starts to come in and I was like well, I heard that a small gun is bad because it's not as accurate, right, or it doesn't have the. You know it doesn't have the same carrying capacity, right, as my, again, my five and a half inch double stack gun. Whatever it happens to be, don't carry a 1911 because that thing's going to go off in your pants or if you drop it, or whatever. There's so many things that they're trying to get through versus like what are you doing? Why are you doing that? And those whys are, I think, are starting to become more developed.
Speaker 2:But, to your point, people are trying to find a gun that's going to solve all of their problems, right? Or a piece of equipment that's going to solve all their problems. You have put the cart way in front of the horse. Number one, number two what is your problem, right? What problem are you trying to solve? Right, is the thing. That is what the message should be. And then from there, let's work backwards, let's reverse engineer this, and could there be some truth to a smaller, you know, pistol, in this case is a little takes well, let's just put it this way takes a higher level of fundamentals and practice to be as accurate with it than some of these larger pistols that are maybe, I would say, like driving a Ferrari versus driving a, you know, a Ford Taurus or something like that, you know kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But they're they're trying to find like the solution. Right, there's never one way. There's all there's. There's a way and then there's many different ways within that way to come to the, come to the answer for yourself. And that that takes time, it takes a, it takes a takes. There's a journey involved here. It's finance, it's time, it's practice, it's getting out there and having, you know, not doing well, it's going out there and doing really well and taking those things and trying to find the gap there and and figuring it out. But yeah, I went through that too. I mean, my EDC is a 48 mls, yeah, with a, with a uh rmrcc on it. You know that's, that's what it is. People will go dude, that's so inaccurate that that little gun you know you can't. I do just listen, brother, why?
Speaker 2:because I practice with it I just went from.
Speaker 1:So I had a 365 for a long time and I'm like I carry glocks forever, man, clock 19, this last agency clock 22, I mean. And I'm like, hey, you know what, I'm gonna try it out. I got myself a clock 48. The only issue I've had is my optics. Um, I have to, um, shave down my optic screw a little bit because it's screwing with my ejector. So once in a while I'm like huh. So I don't completely vouch for that gun yet until I figure out my optics I took the optics off it.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, it's a whole thing. Because, uh, I want to love the gun so much, I took the optics off it and here's the deals I that's another problem, what you just said.
Speaker 2:Right, there is somebody marrying themselves to something and then trying to work out their problem around that, when that is the problem yep, and here's the deal is like I I have a small following on social media, like 6700.
Speaker 1:I'm not an influencer, but I tell these companies. I'm like I've been pitching some of them because I go on tv all the time. The core tv shit is a quote-unquote expert, a firearm. So I'm like, hey, look, I will take. I can only vouch for the guns that I have and that I use, and there's only a certain amount of them. I mean I got some decent amount of guns but I won't. Don't send me a gun and have me vouch for it unless I beat the living shit out of it. I mean I want to, and that's the thing is I took this Glock 48 and I literally ran with the optics.
Speaker 1:I ran five to 600 rounds through it and it was jamming a lot. So I'm like, okay, I popped the sights off it. I threw about 2 000 rounds through that thing. No issue, it was fine, no issue at all. I know, I know what the problem is. I know I would rely on that guy on 110.
Speaker 1:So now when I shave down the optics, I'm gonna throw another 2 000 rounds through, but I'm not running 2 000 rounds worth of fucking prime ammo here I want, and I tell these companies. I'm like, look, I pitched a few of them lately. And I'm like, look, I will gladly rep you and I'll, I guarantee you I'll sell this gun to a million different people. Because it's true, I'm not going to be doing fancy videos, but I want to put the shittiest ammo through it and I did that with this. My buddy my buddy was he brought literally ziploc bags of the shittiest ammo he had for years and we shot it and the gun had no issue. I want to. I want to take a bucket of ammo and put a thousand rounds into it and I want to just fill it with sand and water and then load it up in mags. I want to kill the gun because I don't want to be one of these people where it's like here's a gun, shoot, make a cool video and sell some.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, listen, I. I really appreciate that statement because, again, going back to the influencer thing, don't sell yourself short, jason. I think you're doing a great job out there with the things that you do and and you are reaching people. You certainly reached me, uh, for whatever that's worth. But the point of that being is people not understanding how to problem solve. And you know, going back to influencers or whatever and and I don't, glock doesn't pay me, right? So you know, I mentioned that guy, they don't pay me, I don't. I don't get paid by gun companies or equipment companies or anything like that.
Speaker 2:I learned very early on that's that's a slippery slope and that there are things that need to go into that. And the most important thing you need to do as a gun owner is you need to go shoot your guns. You need to go shoot your guns. You don't just decide because somebody else is doing it. Then you go out to the range and you put 500 rounds through it that you're good to go. That is not what I mean. And when you shoot things long enough, you will figure things out about them, as you just described, and you will be able to diagnose. You need to understand how the gun works.
Speaker 2:Number one, which I think is a huge missing piece in a lot of this instruction there's a lot of assumptions made that people understand how their firearm actually works. How do you break it down? If something's not working right? How do you know what that is? Is that you? Is it the gun? Is it what you've strapped to it? You know? Is it any modifications you made to it? Again, people want to go right into this. You know well, here's all the best things for your thing. With regard to equipment, there's a lot of great things and there is no one gun or one optic or one piece of equipment that solves all of your problems. And even if it does solve the 80%, it doesn't mean it's the right thing for you. There's a concept of individuality here and going back to the testing and beating things up, I think that's one of the major things. People make decisions and they'll die on a hill about something, whether it's a firearm or, again, some type of equipment that goes on that thing or that you're carrying it in or whatever else, and they really have no basis for saying that.
Speaker 2:Outside of, there's a camp of people that says this is the right thing. I'm part of that camp. There's safety in numbers. I'm going to go with what they're saying. They may have more experience than me, so I'm going to trust. Trust them on this, versus I'm gonna go out and figure this out on my own. People need to go shoot their guns more. They need to shoot the gun they're gonna carry or they've decided to carry before they, because they might change their mind. They might. They may figure that that is a, that was a. That was something I had to learn. You know, and I've got several firearms and they're. There's purposes for those, versus going to the store letting the guy behind the gun counter sell you what he thinks you should have, versus you figuring that process out your own. But it goes all the way back to educating a consumer and putting these things in front of them and I think it's getting better. I really do. It is it's getting better.
Speaker 1:And you know which turn I'm getting rid of my SIGs? I'm not, you know. Yeah, that's another story.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting statement.
Speaker 1:Jason, it's an interesting story, but hey, you know what, sig, I'm sorry If you could come up with something. It's great Because, listen, I got like a bunch of them, man, border Patrol commemorative oh nice. No way I'm going to get rid of that thing.
Speaker 1:And I got a Sig Scorpion 1911. Love that gun so much, but the other ones, eh, you know. But then all of a sudden I'm like okay, this is what happens when I get into a gun shop. Well, a gun shop, my range up here. It's a place called X-Cal and I had to wait. I didn't reserve a range, a lane, that day, so I had an hour and a half to kill. So I go up. I'm like, huh, that clock 45 looks really cool, okay. So an hour later I'm walking out of there.
Speaker 2:You got another one, that's often how it happens, that's the other thing we should warn people that may be listening to this for the first time or trying to trying to learn and understand things be careful, they're like tattoos they're worse than tattoos.
Speaker 1:Listen, let me look at my, look at this. I can't stop I got tattoos everywhere.
Speaker 2:They're still, you know they're fun, they all do something a little bit different. You know, in a sense they have a different feel and there's a lot of personalization that goes into into those things. But yeah, to your, to. You know, to the point, I think, what you know you mentioned. You mentioned that brand there a second ago. That's another thing that I think the consumer market is confused by, and this consumer market includes mill and LEO as well is that you have these.
Speaker 2:You have some companies out there that have a major footprint and they've been doing a thing for a very long time and they have a name. The brand name behind there kind of precedes itself and people are making decisions based on, you know, that brand or whatever they've said, or dude carried it 15 years ago. You know, in this particular situation and this war and this duty assignment or whatever it is, and you're going back to your. This leads back to the. You testing guns, yeah, and the consumer market is now left to test a lot of these things, and so what you're seeing is those that are using them a lot are breaking them, and that will happen. If you shoot things long enough, you use things long enough, equipment breaks, as like the one that you just mentioned, and there's nothing coming from that company about what's being publicized out there because of that brand, I think, and the name that it has has preceded itself. But there's some very obvious things Now going back to testing and buying equipment that is less likely to break or has been put through the ringer by both the consumer, but I'm talking about more of the manufacturer. There are more companies now, I think, than ever that are building or manufacturing firearms that have done due diligence by going through a process that's much different than just hanging on their brand, because they are trying to build their brand while behind, not in front of, they're building the brand behind the quality of the firearm or the piece of equipment that they're bringing to market, and they feel very strongly about that. And they are small enough, in a sense I just mean that from an organizational perspective and focused enough as a provider to still care about that. And they are making some.
Speaker 2:There are some wild stuff happening in the firearms market right now and I mean that in the best kind of way in terms of the quality that's coming out um, the consistency, the durability, the precision. There's so much tech that's happening. There's good and bad with that, because that just provides more things for the consumer to have to get through. Right, but there are, there are. There are companies out there that beat the crap out of their stuff in a really good way. It's not, they just fulfilled a contract and we'll let somebody else figure that out. Now it's nope, we're not going to release anything. We're not going to put anything out. Could it have problems? Everything will. There's going to be bumps in the road, but we are going to do everything we can and consumers need to understand that who those companies are and what they're, what they're doing and what they're about yeah, I need it.
Speaker 1:I wish I had more money, you know, but because there are so many guns, I want to try. Yes, I, you know, I want to start getting into long range, but right now I'm still at this point where I'm like oh, that's a man.
Speaker 1:That's a rabbit hole, jason I'm not gonna and that's why I'm not gonna talk about it right now is, uh, I, but I want to. I want to find the perfect thing. Because here's the other thing when it comes to pistols is like I can't personally vouch for something unless I personally beat the shit out of it and shoot it and carry it. You know, and this is one of those those things where it's like I've, over the past, I used to have sponsors that would give me some brand stuff and I'm like, oh, you know it's good and but it's like you, I feel dirty. You know, unless I could vouch for that thing, I'm like, because here's the deal, man, it's like tattoos, like not everybody could afford them. Guns, and everybody afford them. I don't want to be vouching out to my audience or the people that I know and having them spend their hard-earned money on something that's not 110% and understanding sales and understanding process, you know, and let's just say, agendas.
Speaker 2:That's what something I was looking for, which was an impetus for the podcast and having a lot of the conversations I was having as I was reaching out to people to get honest, non-disingenuous I guess the right word there is genuine, authentic, you know, well-informed answers to questions I had about that very thing. Like I don't want to make a $600 mistake, I realized I'm and I did. I made a lot of those right. I don't want to make a 2000, 3000, 4000, you know, dollar mistake. Nobody wants to do that, um, and unfortunately I think a lot of people do. We've. I think we talked about a lot of what those things could be already. But because they're taking somebody else's word for it, who has taken a paycheck from somebody and is saying what they want or need to say in order to continue to have those paychecks coming in.
Speaker 2:More than ever, I think you're also seeing a shift in that there are some folks out there that do a really good job of not marrying themselves or anybody and they just give a very honest opinion. That comes with consequences, and I don't mean that in a negative way, just like it's the natural. I think that's what makes the world turn. They're going to get negativity. People are going to hate them for being honest about the testing or the beating up of that that you know, that that brand that they are so in love with, for whatever the reasons are uh and and could be making a lot of money. Right, they could be taking some, probably some really large checks by just going, uh, yeah, I'll take that and I'll say your stuff's good, when in reality I don't. So when you're talking about vetting instructors and know, buying equipment and things like that, I think, again, that's another challenge for consumers and I think it's a it's. It became a really large challenge for instructors that were trying to build a business and also trying to build, you know, relationships, business to business with people. They got themselves in some hot water.
Speaker 2:Uh, in a sense, and the problem with it is the real problem with it is, first off, this is a very unforgiving industry when it comes to relationships in a lot of ways. In other ways, I'm just like do you not remember that that guy? You have short-term memory loss. Do you not remember what that guy said or did? Or what that company, company x, said or did? But, um, I guess you know my, my, my, my point in saying that is it's very easy for people to fall into that trap or be preyed upon, and I think you're. Once you've done that, once you've walked into that.
Speaker 2:This was the caution to anybody out there, any instructor, any you know business or company and any consumers. Once, once you make that decision, no amount of toothpaste will wash that taste out of your audience's mouth, out of your it's amazing, sometimes it will. Some people are again have short-term memory loss, but out of your mouth and out of that company's mouth. When it, when it wasn't done from a place of integrity and we saw a lot of that during that huge uptick in 2021 and whatever and people still have, they have hurt feelings about this. Feelings are okay, but they have some serious hurt feelings about it. And it made the, it muddied the waters, you know, for people to make good decisions and know if they were making the right one or not.
Speaker 1:Uh, which was an interesting thing for me to explore, as I, you know, kind of continue my journey you know, man, I'm just uh, this whole conversation we've had, we're going to get a couple more things here real quick, sure man, then I'll let you go. But the I was giggling to myself a little while ago because I remember, uh, 1995 there's a movie called get shorty, yeah, with dennis farina's in it, and it's one guy who's like the henchman pulls out this gun and dennis farina pulls out his. Dennis farina has like a 32 and it's like some cheap shit gun and the guy goes you know, I've heard those things jam a lot and blah, blah, blah and dennis farina's like and pops them. It's the same thing. It's like you hear all these things about guns and I think about that. That scenario is like the thing works, but he heard so much at a jams, he's like it works fine right now yeah, people have selective hearing.
Speaker 2:Um in, in this day and age, with all the information that's out there, if you do some due diligence, it's very easy to get information and to be it's. I think it's it's harder for people to be discerning when there's so much information. But that just means a little bit, I think, deeper level of patience and commitment to understanding that this is a process. All of this is a process and learning what works, who's giving you your information, the vetting of anything out there, and there's no, there's never been another time in history where there's there's more avenues to be able to do that. And again, I just I'll give a shout out to all the people that are doing such a great job with it, like the YouTube channels, the Instagram, you know pages. Uh, they have there's discords and things like that. Where man, it's not hard, it isn't hard. I mean, people will complain about things being throttled and the information not getting out there. Yeah, there's been some truth to that and there is some truth to that. But if you really want it, I'm proof positive of that, like I have proof of concept to that If you just reach out to people and you actually start to have conversations instead of just consuming all the time, but engage and be a participant in those conversations, no matter where you're coming into it.
Speaker 2:I came into it. I think I described myself as being an infant or a baby when I came in the amount of confidence, right, and knowledge and uh aptitude that you can, you can accrue over time, right, and building these relationships, but also having the conversations even when you are the the whitest white belt in the room. Right, you can, you can overcome this stuff. Just it will be. That's matched, that has to be matched with how much commitment you have into actually applying and practicing, not just learning. Right, there has to be a practice and I think, more than ever, like, people are starting to make that connection between the practice and the or you know, in the, in the knowledge base, and you're it's, it's.
Speaker 2:It's a very positive time. There's still a bunch of noise out there there's always going to be, but I think it's a very positive time for people to be entering into the space and figuring it out. It's. It's very cool and things like this, this podcast, and the things like you're doing and other people are doing are, are where people can get that honest answer right. Like I don't know, jason, I don't know who sponsors are, sure, or whatever, but what I do know right now is I'm not looking at a million you know ad things popping up on the screen right now or whatever else, and and I think that's what the consumer is looking for it's looking like where's this message coming from, like who's given it to me and why should I listen? And even if you don't like what you're hearing right now, like there's going to be value in it somewhere. Um, what can you extract instead of what are you focused on hating and not liking about it? Anyway, that's my tangent and soapbox.
Speaker 1:No, it's true, man, but the actually the end of the day. There is something else we we always fail to remember with firearms is you can have a hell of a lot of fun with a man. Oh man, it's not always about like tactics, techniques, procedures and shoot, move, communicate. You could have a lot of. I tell people I'm like compete, but I'm scared. I'm like listen, when I go to these competitions, man, there's, like you know, you got a spattering of mill and leos and stuff, but you got a ton of civilians, man, and it's fun.
Speaker 2:There's so many things so many things with community. There's competition. If you want to get involved in that and when we talk about competition, dude, it's endless, right. I mean you mentioned the distance shooting or long range stuff go do that. If that's, you're gonna go try it. You know uspsa, idpa, oh man, steel matches, uh, just going out and shooting cans. You know if you got property, you know tin cans or aluminum cans to do that, like all of that. That stuff.
Speaker 2:It brings people together. But it can also be if you're looking for solitude, right, and you're looking for just alone time to focus. For some people that's like golf, right. I get outside, I golf by myself or I go golf with my buddies on the weekends. It brings people together. You get to have conversations. You get outside of work.
Speaker 2:For those people that work and carry for a living like police officers to work for those people that work and carry for a living like police officers. It gets you off of the job. But it also it's like you're also improving a skill and you can add some competition to it. So you go back to the testing and the stress and those kind of things where you're being pushed and even on the days you don't really want to do it. Somebody there is going to kind of pull you along or drag you along. Man, there's so much value in it Family time and and the value that, that, that that that has in my life but in so many other places and people's lives and bringing bringing people together to do stuff and introducing them to things in a very safe.
Speaker 2:When I say safe environment, I don't mean that like from the firearm safety perspective, that always goes along with firearms. But uh, you know just the it's. It's a, it's a comfortable environment where you're you, you can, you can ease people into into the thing and you can be a vehicle for introducing. You know somebody reintroducing somebody to their second amendment, right, you know the protected second amendment right here, and all the things that come along with it. Maybe they like it, maybe they don't, but it's man, it's so much fun. I have some of the best friends I've ever made in the world. Uh are, you can directly draw, connect the dot to it somewhere. Firearms are involved in it that's my life too, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know we're gonna have to have another episode. Uh, maybe, maybe I'll cruise out that way. I didn't even talk about the podcast, the Honor Sites podcast and the Red Dot Fitness, but we'll get into that next time, brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I appreciate you. These kind of conversations are always fun for me and I always appreciate when people have me on just to talk about whatever. So, man, if there's anything I can do to help you with your message and putting it out there, I'm totally available. For that. I'd love to jump on anytime, man. We just got to, like we did this time, figure out a way to get it on the calendar and I'm there, man, absolutely, brother.
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