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The Protectors® Podcast
Welcome to The Protectors® Podcast, where the valor meets the storyteller. Hosted by Jason Piccolo, a seasoned veteran and retired special agent, this series is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the courage and tales of those who pledge to protect us. Beyond the front-line stories of bravery and dedication, this podcast goes a step further, weaving in the perspectives of those who bolster and narrate the protector's journey—featuring a remarkable lineup including New York Times Best Sellers and acclaimed Hollywood actors.
The Protectors® Podcast offers a diverse array of voices, from those who wear the uniform to the authors and entertainers who amplify their stories. It's a unique blend that highlights not only the raw realities faced by our protectors but also how their sacrifices inspire the narratives we cherish in literature and film. Each episode is a testament to the interconnected worlds of service and support, bringing listeners an unmatched depth of insight.
Dr. Jason Piccolo is a retired federal agent, former U.S. Army Infantry Captain (Iraq 2006), and author.
Past Guests Include:- Sean Patrick Flanery - Andrews & Wilson- Mark Greaney- Stephen Hunter- Remi Adeleke - Florent Groberg - Clint Emerson - Travis Mills
The Protectors® Podcast
502 | Sean Curtis | Pew Pew Tactical | On Law Enforcement, Writing, and Firearms Training
What happens when you hang up the badge and try to start anew? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Sean Curtis, who shares his deeply personal journey of transitioning from a law enforcement career. We tackle the financial and emotional challenges officers face when they leave the force, including the struggle to redefine one's identity. Sean also sheds light on the generational shifts in job loyalty and how this impacts law enforcement recruitment. We get candid about the significant sacrifices made for often inadequate compensation, and the need for better resources and support for those who protect our communities.
Ever wondered how to balance a creative passion with financial stability, especially in writing? Sean and I dig into the importance of consistent practice for writers and the need for creative outlets for mental well-being. We discuss platforms like Substack that provide modern avenues for sharing work without restrictions and reflect on the journey from traditional media to influential digital publications like Pew Pew Tactical.
Make sure to check out Jason on IG @drjasonpiccolo
You know what we do, sean is. We jot down a few notes and then we say, hey, you know what, let's hit record. Hey, welcome to the Protectors Podcast. Got an excellent guest today, sean Curtis. You know, sean, right before I hit that record button, you brought up a really good point Transitioning from law enforcement. Yeah, that's the topic. That's the topic and that's the one. I swear like I've had this book idea in my head forever about the pivot. You know, the pivot from LA, from military, from everything. And all of us, especially at this age bracket, have this time when we're like we're going to do something else. Man, we got to do something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but there's some complications involved, aren't there?
Speaker 1:Oh, there's a ton of complications. That's the truth when you're talking about fiscal responsibility, when you're talking about family, when you're talking about giving up that badge for good, right, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I was fortunate or not, however you might look at it from whichever perspective you want to take, but I was out a couple of times. I didn't have a seamless career, and working for elected officials my entire career. It's not completely unheard of. I did man 15 years at a sheriff's office in Southwest Colorado, worked for a few different sheriffs during that time and at one point I got out. I was just fed up. I you know you. You talked about finances.
Speaker 2:Law enforcement doesn't always prepare you for a life where you have to pay bills and try to make ends meet and stay on top of stuff. But when I got out, I realized that nothing had prepared me for what was going on and I didn't understand how quickly my identity had become enmeshed with that whole law enforcement thing. And it's not. I try to explain this to people who haven't done the job. And it's not a career. It's not a job, it is a lifestyle. I mean, it is all encompassing and it becomes so pivotal to who you are, who you identify yourself as a person, that when it's suddenly gone, you set yourself up for a lot of potential for failure.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, you and I grow up, we look. We look at law enforcement as like the career. You know that's what we want to do, that's our life. A lot of the generation now I'm seeing people leaving after five, 10 years. Oh yeah, yeah, and I can understand why. You know a lot of the generation.
Speaker 1:Now I'm seeing people leaving after five, 10 years. Oh, yeah, yeah, and I can understand why. You know a lot of it's with the support, but you know a lot of the but there are still a ton I'd probably say like 90% that this is their identity, this is their life. This is like what is? What is there after this and what if happens? If it, if it's cut short, like, look at you, you, you had a little, you know, some speed bumps in there in your career. You get back into it. But what happens if you're only there for like five, six years that you plan on being in your life? Either you have a devastating injury or something else happens. You get canceled.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, generationally, you know, as far as the statistics go, I know that some of the younger generations are more prone to job hopping, and so that's a different dynamic.
Speaker 2:No judgment there, you know, like everybody comes at their life in their own way and has to establish their value. But I think it makes it more of a challenge for law enforcement recruiters these days, because everybody makes that decision about hey, here's what I've got to do and here's what I get for it, and maybe this is what I get out of it, and that's a tougher proposition now than it was back in the day. You used to look at it as okay, that's solid work. I feel good about making a difference in society. Okay, that's solid work. I feel good about making a difference in society. And I'm barely scraping by, I'm doing okay, but people can make a lot more money now and not risk their lives and not have to put that much commitment into something. So it almost if you really don't feel that calling there's no incentive for you.
Speaker 1:It really does have to be called. I mean, not everybody can be in the Fed. The Fed pays you very well and, believe me, I know that I was in the Fed for 23 years. But that's one of the reasons I started that Protectors Foundation is because once you get off the highway and you start getting into these small towns and you find deputies, you find officers making 13, 14, 15 bucks an hour, sergeants making $22 an hour and you go down the same highways. You get off the same highways and you stop at Buc-ee's and the manager of Buc-ee's is making a buck and a quarter, like $125,000 a year. You're over here. You might know backup. It's one in the morning in the middle of nowhere as a meth heads be cracking your skull while another one's pulling a gun for 14 bucks an hour.
Speaker 2:I did my first 10 years when I hired on and, granted, I'm dating myself, but when I hired on I was making 20,000 a year and within like seven years seven to 10, I was a sergeant and I was making $28,000 a year. I'd been shot at. I can't tell you how many times I've been in fights and critical incidents. You know, member of the SWAT team, all of the things that we've done and it just didn't add up. I was going into debt and having a hard time making ends meet, you know it. Just that that wasn, that wasn't a good way. So I left to go and get an education.
Speaker 2:I was a non-traditional student. I got out of high school and I started with the search and rescue as a volunteer, and in Colorado the sheriff is constitutionally responsible for search and rescue, whether they farm that out to somebody else or whether they handle it all in-house. The county where I lived it was all handled in-house, so that was my segue. That's how I got into becoming a reserve deputy, not too much longer. And then I was 20 years old when I graduated from the academy, so I wasn't even able to legally be a law enforcement officer, but about a month later I got in and started working, so interesting time. But yeah, I had to jump back out and go get an education to try and better myself.
Speaker 1:You know, back in the day you'd need a bachelor's. You practically need a damn doctorate in order to get promoted anywhere. And then you're still making 60 grand a year. One of my friends masters multiple languages. 60 something thousand dollars a year, you know, come on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's. It's fascinating because it's almost like a proving grounds or a crucible for the truly cursed. How much of a glutton for punishment are you? We're not going to pay you much. We use a warm bodies hiring philosophy. Do you have a pulse? Come on in, we'll get you suited up and then put you through a lot of rough stuff, seeing things and doing things that the general public can't even begin to understand, and yet curses you for on a continual basis. So, really trying I wouldn't change anything, but I definitely have some perspective on it now.
Speaker 1:You know, I think seeing different aspects of society makes you more creative. I think if you just sit and you get into a ho-hum job or you're sitting in a cubicle for 20 years, you don't really get to experience life other than a two week vacation. You get a year, you know that ends up being a week because you got to take leave for other crap, right, you don't get a really good experience. But when you start dealing with different facets of life and you start seeing different people and you start seeing how things affect people and you start thinking, hey, you know, maybe there's more to this life than just this, right, then the creative aspect comes in. And that's where, like, the writing comes in, that's where, like, the art comes in, that's where, like, how many of us know someone who makes knives? Right, how many you know? Different things are out there. That's creative, coming from the people who have lived this lifestyle of seeing different adversity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard a couple of your podcasts where you talk about the creativity that's almost like a hidden vein of gold that seems to be embedded in a lot of first responders and people who feel called to serve society. And it is an interesting idea to me in high school and sang and did art and was into theater and really loved writing. I just absolutely loved writing. But as soon as I got into law enforcement all of my creativity was stifled. Most of my vocabulary I couldn't use because on December 17th, approximately 1700 hours, I responded to 123 Elm Street in response to a call for a man See the man, you know. I mean everything was formatted and I couldn't use a lot of those facets, but they did work their way back out eventually. But they did work their way back out eventually.
Speaker 1:You know the creative thing. There's another aspect to that too. With the first responders and you said it's like a vein of gold, but it's like it doesn't have to be monetized. I know so many creatives that want to write, they want to do this and they want to do that, but then they start thinking about the dollar sign and they don't remember that. You know especially writing, writing. You got to put words on paper, right, you got to. You got to write. You got to practice writing. You got to write everything you can, yeah, yeah. And you can't just make like. You know, you can't just publish a New York Times bestselling book. You got to actually work.
Speaker 2:Right, I think too. You know the the amount of stifling that goes on because of the profession. If you don't find a creative outlet in some other way, you're, you're bound to have some kind of problems. You know, we're told that when we write reports we just have to stick to the facts. So there's a whole constellation of additional information that might be very relevant to a prosecution, but you can't talk about it because you have to report the facts, and so that gets shoved down. Put a body cam on officers, send them out into the street, all the things that they would love to say. They're not going to get to say those. They still think those things, but that gets shoved down too. So yeah, a creative outlet, that's a great point. It doesn't have to be monetized, but it's potentially good for your health.
Speaker 1:It's potentially good for your health. Yeah, you know I keep trying to. I keep pushing people towards sub stacks too, and, if anybody out there is listening, a sub stack is almost like the old blog, but it's like you know, it's a, it's a platform where you could write and you can get people to subscribe and and read your stuff. There's really I mean, you can put stuff on Facebook and all the other social media but like a dedicated area where you could write what you want to write about and not be throttled, not be anything.
Speaker 1:you can just kind of write I mean it's a great avenue to find your voice my whole thing in life was I always wanted to be in a magazine like I wanted to write in a magazine. I finally got. I finally got like the last I think it was the last issue of actual published issue of Skill Set, nice and my article was in there and I was like, yes, because you and I growing up magazines were it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I had kind of a similar journey In 2014,. I was working for a DA's office at the time as an investigator and Police One. The website put out an email looking for writers and I responded and started writing for them pretty quickly. I had, you know, probably 15 years of experience by then, but my experience was a little bit crazy. But my experience was a little bit crazy. I had not only law enforcement and several aspects of that as much as you can have in a small community but I was an EMT. I worked part time on ambulance service. I coordinated our search and rescue efforts with another coordinator and I also was the assistant fire marshal. So I was a red carded firefighter and then I really got into incident management. You know when NIMS took off and we started doing ICS, that became huge.
Speaker 2:I think it was the 45th type three incident commander certified in the state of Colorado, which was pretty rare for law enforcement. Sure, you see fire guys show up all the time that have those certifications, but it was pretty rare for me, and so I had a lot of stories for Police One that spanned a bunch of different areas of emergency response and I started writing for them and that eventually led to other places where I was able to get into print magazines too.
Speaker 1:Well now I mean Pew Pew Tactical is pretty solid. Man, that's very solid. I mean I didn't realize, like, how solid they were until I started looking into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do. It comes and goes and obviously you know there's a seasonal slump, but we average in a three to four million views per month. And it's funny because the whole premise is based on Eric Hung, who started the organization. He wasn't raised around firearms and he was very interested in them and when he started learning about them he had friends come to him and ask him questions. Right In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. So he had the idea. Surely there's got to be a service for this. Why isn't someone putting out this kind of information? And he started digging into it, started writing the blog like you said, writing a blog and found out a way to use affiliate links to monetize, and that created the whole business, went full-time in 2018. And I started writing for them freelance in 2018. And it eventually led to us getting going full-time with them in 2021 and you know it is so.
Speaker 1:I I love guns man, I love shooting. It seems like I don't even know how my life became this, ever since I, a few years ago, I started doing competition shooting and the next thing you know like I'm shooting, and shooting, and shooting, I'm buying more guns and now I'm a. I'm a full-time FI, uh, contracted firearms instructor for a major police department. But there's so hard to find information. What, what information triggers are, what kind of optics I need. If I'm going to be spending multiple dollars, I'm not going to say how much money I spend on guns, but if I'm going to be spending a lot of money on guns and optics and this and that and buying different triggers and this and upgrades, it's tough to find information man. It is really tough. It's tough to find information man.
Speaker 2:It is really tough, yeah, and you know we always hold the value that people should be critical consumers of media, and unfortunately that's a skill that seems to be in decline. You spend any amount of time on TikTok looking at content and the outright blatant falsehoods that are perpetrated there and then parroted by people who forward it or like it or do whatever, when a simple Google search, would you know, tell you immediately that that's not even anywhere true, or it was misconstrued or something. There's some caveat. So I feel you, man, we have a desire to provide people with accurate information and even though we are I mean, obviously we're a business, we're affiliate based, but we won't recommend products unless we take them out and shoot them and like them and they work well for us. And if we have any issues along the way, we mention those too, and it happens frequently.
Speaker 2:I think there are a lot of sources out there that seem to never have any issues with firearms, and I don't. Maybe I don't leave a blessed life or something, I don't know. I have issues frequently with firearms, but you know it's best that people get that information so that they can make that judgment too, because then that kind of pulls in a secondary aspect of hey, how's the company going to take care of you? You can't make a fair assessment of that based on me and the number of people that are going to be viewing our products, but, uh, it should give you a good idea like hey, they took care of it, uh, they solved it and they got it back out and it ran fine after that.
Speaker 1:So you know product reviews, and here's the problem with I have with a lot of like the influencer based stuff is they're getting a free gun, they're getting a free gun. They, they're getting a free gun, they're getting free. They're getting $2,000, $3,000 a month to post or whatever $5,000, even more. But they only have a certain market. There are, let's say, there is left, there's right, there's people in the middle when we're talking about politics, but there's so many people on both sides of the aisle that like firearms, they want firearms, they want to shoot, they want to know how to defend themselves, they want to know how to be a protector, and they don't want to go to the usual suspects. They want to go somewhere and find factual information that's going to say hey, you know what? This thing is really a piece of crap. You might want to look at it, you might not want to look at it. I should say yeah. So it's really tough to find good information out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that go into the workings behind that too. I don't know about receiving two to $3,000 a month for posting. I'm not familiar with that model. We don't do pay for play. Uh sure, people will send us guns and, um, a large majority of the time we end up sending them back when the review is done.
Speaker 2:There are occasions where we end up keeping a gun, but we don't know that in advance. That's. That's not something that comes out in the review. It's not something that we know in advance. We send out the review back to the company and then they let us know how they want to dispel the firearm, but I would say nine times out of ten that gun goes back or goes to another reviewer. There's no money exchange. There's not a situation where we're being paid for our opinion and our opinion, you know, is not always the most glowing about firearms that we receive. If we have something that we don't like them, we definitely say that. So it's kind of interesting, but I know that there are different approaches out there. So it's kind of interesting, but I know that there are different approaches out there, different attempts to monetize, creating content and putting it out there. But we have pretty solid procedures, like any publication does, because that's what we consider ourselves.
Speaker 2:If we have a problem with a firearm, we contact the company. We let them know hey, this happened, how would you like to proceed? We don't come out and slam people. We don't slam an organization because they had a bad firearm. We work with them, we try to figure out, we tell them, hey, in advance, we're going to talk about this. If we complete this review, we're going to do this. But when you mentioned that you don't see people slamming firearms, there are people that will come out and just absolutely trash a firearm and I have a hard time with that, because if it's that bad that you need to absolutely slam it, then why are you doing the review in the first place? To me that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Give you doing the review in the first place.
Speaker 2:To me, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Give me the good, give me the bad. Let me figure it out myself. You know, I think I think people, like I said, need to be critical consumers of media, but they also need to be given that choice. I don't presume to tell people what their opinion should be. I share my opinion and try to back it up with the facts of the experience that I had.
Speaker 1:Here's the problem with firearms and the influencers and this and that and all that is that there are different price points. I know a ton of people Listen, we just talked about cost making 13, 14 bucks an hour. There's people out there who are barely scraping by, but they want a gun for protection. They can't afford a $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, top of the line. They can't afford a $900 gun, but yeah, maybe they could afford a $200 or $300 gun. I end up buying.
Speaker 1:I think I bought 95, bought 95 of my guns. I had a couple given to me, like henry gave me a rifle once, black aces tactical gave me a shotgun, but that's it. Two guns out of other guns I have around here. But yeah, but the majority, like the guns I have, though, I buy them because I want to get a good idea right, and I mean the most high-end pistol I have is a wilson combat uh, but I, like I just recently I had so much 40 cal left over from my career that I had to buy a 40 just so I could shoot it, because it's cheaper to buy a gun then. So I bought a little torus uh, th 40 just to shoot man, and I'm like it's a 300 gun? Yeah, gun Am I going to be? Is it going to feel like my Wilson Combat? No, is it going to put bullets down range? Yes.
Speaker 1:But then I get into like different things, like, okay, this month I might like revolver, so I'll go pick up a revolver, but I don't want to go and spend, you know, get some Kimber revolver, I just want something I can plank with. But then you have the people out there who are like you know, I had the Taurus USA guys on once and they're like look man, the Tauruses of the 1990s were like the Hyundais of the 1980s and 90s. You didn't know what you were going to get. Yeah, nowadays, pretty much. Listen, the regular consumer is not going to be going hardcore 1,000 rounds a week going to battle putting a thing underneath a car tire, throwing it in a river, picking it up. They're not. They want to get maybe a couple of 2,000, 3,000 rounds through it in their lifetime. Maybe, yeah, but they want something that's going to go and it's going to be there when they need it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, click bang every time you press a trigger. I mean that's absolutely one of the factors that they should be rated on is their reliability. We've reviewed a couple of Tauruses lately and they have come up in. I think they had that new executive the revolver that they did. I liked that. I thought that was a great gun. The GX4 Toro is a really solid gun for the price. It's small, not my favorite with my big hands, but it's a heck of a value. I'm glad that they admitted to the QC issues that they had in the past and that they've been working through those. All of the Taurus products that I've had recently are solid.
Speaker 1:And the only reason I started getting to go in on a Taurus rabbit hole was I needed a revolver. I had to. I was to get um in order to get certified to teach um security guards and PIs and stuff in the state of Virginia. I don't do the job, but I just want to get the certification. I had to qualify with a revolver, a semi and ar and a shotgun. I mean I have everything else but I didn't have. The only revolver I had was a a 44 magnum. Oh, I'm like I'm not gonna pull out eight and a half inch barrel 44 magnum and shoot this thing, nice. So I I picked up one of those taurus tauros yeah, it's a, it's an optic ready revolver and I was like, hey, this thing shoots awesome. Man, a little 357, I threw some 38s in there. I'm like it's just a good little cheap plinker, yeah yeah, I love that caliber too.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, with 357 you can run 38 so if you want to be affordable, economical, what have you? Uh, it's fun because you've got the applicability to lever guns too, you know, I mean, there's just so many places that that opens up. And looking back at the FBI statistics, I think the 357 still has the most one shot stoppages. It's been a while since I've looked at it, but I think that still holds true.
Speaker 1:And then my random ass, about three weeks ago bought a .327 Magnum from Taurus Because it's a six-shot snub. I'm like I need a movie gun. Okay, listen, I had this P365 with optics and all the other goodies on it, but I don't want to be carrying it around everywhere. Man. I got my little three, six shot three, 27 Magnum, which is just the most random ammo in the world, but it, that thing's a little fire, little firebox, sure.
Speaker 2:I'm imagining your nightstand. Right now there's probably a Monday, tuesday, wednesday. Go to the movies, go work out.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh man Yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know that feeling. I know that feeling. There's just something about slinging light, man.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, and especially if you spend enough time and get enough training to do it relatively well, it's even that more rewarding. I remember guys I used to work with who, man, absolutely hated qualification, right, like, however often it happened they would get so nervous and get so upset and they just go out and it was horrible. You know they wouldn't do well and uh, they weren't getting the the training that they needed and uh, you know your whole job is kind of tied to it, like you have to be able to meet that standard, uh, yeah. So it's funny that for some of us I guess you could label us tackleberries if I wanted to date myself again.
Speaker 1:If everybody doesn't know, tackleberry is from the Police Academy series 1982. I'm going to throw 82 out there.
Speaker 2:There you go. Yeah, I think so, and he was an absolute gun nut. He came into the Police Academy and knew absolutely everything there was to know about firearms.
Speaker 1:There's a scene in that movie where, like, he's on the shotgun range and he grabs the shotgun and he goes to the instructor. Come with me, I do that at the range now once in a while. But you know, when you bring up qualification, you know civilians will go out there and they'll shoot, they'll plank, they'll do this or that without any training, everything. But when you see the officers, like sometimes, like sometimes most times and we're talking like outside of the federal government, our major departments, we're talking like once a year yeah yeah, once a year there's no standard.
Speaker 2:Uh, across the united states, uh, sometimes even within states, there's no set standard and it's oftentimes a patchwork of various levels of qualification as far as how often or what the scores need to be, what accuracy is acceptable. So what the round count is course of fire. There's so many variables involved in it and it's kind of a mess. But yeah, and you know, looking to law enforcement, to be somewhat skilled in that set, I've had my eyes open to that too. I went to an event with USCCA not too long ago and lined up and we were just zeroing some I can't remember if it was rifle or pistol, and you know we all had groups on our paper and I was there with a bunch of other influencers and the instructor walked down the line and he says you were a cop. I said yeah. He says you don't shoot like one. I had a nice tight group, you know.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah, yeah. You know the least used skill, but the most highly criticized and the most high liability.
Speaker 1:I would like to see a standardized police target. I mean not just our target but the fundamental of the target, where that each round needs to be on the silhouette. It needs to be on the silhouette, it needs to be on the suspect. Each bullet, I mean each bullet, needs to be on it, because think about, you're in law enforcement at all. Any round that doesn't hit the suspect, where is it gonna go? You know, there's precision shooting and then there's police shooting and then there's just a conglomerate of just some of these targets.
Speaker 2:Look like shotguns oh, I know, I was looking at one today and I'm like, wow, where's that buckshot come from? Yeah, when I finished my career of the da's office, I became a instructor for our agency too, so I got exposed to quite a bit of that. You're absolutely, absolutely right. You know, there are a lot of things that we still do, unfortunately, that don't necessarily reflect real life scenarios. Uh, and and law enforcement, um, and the further back you go, the less applicable it is with a pistol, uh, as far as distance.
Speaker 2:But um but you're absolutely right, you're responsible for each round, so, uh, that's tough.
Speaker 1:You know this is this past like four or five months now has been some of the most eyeopening of my career. You know I called every every quarter for the past 20 something years, but now actually being there every day and then doing a recruit classes as well, it's a very eye-opening experience. But it helps me become a better shooter. But it also helps me become a better instructor. It helps me understand what needs to be fixed and I think more people in law enforcement management need to come to the range See how their people are shooting. To come to the range, see how their people are shooting.
Speaker 1:Don't do the quote-unquote executive shooting where you know you come down with the command staff and then you guys shoot and you get out of there right, roll down there, shoot with the line troops and see what's going on. Yeah, see what they need. Don't just go there and shoot. Don't don't put your tunnel vision on it and worry about your own score. Shoot or just sit back there. Come back. You know a teaching assistant always has some, or a first-time teacher always has a principal or someone sitting in. You know. Same thing with law enforcement. If you want to see what's really going on, come down to the recruit classes, see how they're shooting and see what they what you need to do to help them improve absolutely, and that also goes back to leading by example too.
Speaker 2:You know you shouldn't have to ask people to do something that you're incapable of doing too, but, yeah, it shows support. I mean, as a firearms instructor, I learned the challenges of advocating for the people that you taught and trying to change policy as a result of that. You know there's plenty of case law out there, even constitutional the Supreme Court case law that's applicable to firearms and training and what constitutes a training and what doesn't constitute a training. Qualification is not a training and what doesn't constitute a training, qualification is not a training. So there's lots of different areas that are pretty openly publicized. There are road signs along the way that say, if you fail to do these things and they teach them to you when you become an instructor you are potentially liable for the actions of your students. You are potentially liable for the actions of your students. So, uh, yeah, that was that was that was a challenge for me. Uh, trying to advocate to get more training and then, of course, limited budgets and everything else that comes involved. You know that struggle.
Speaker 1:There's so much you could do without budget, though, and I'd like to transition into the civilian instruction thing too.
Speaker 1:It's like you know so many people. They buy the gun, they go to the range and you know they might get a basic pistol course, but then they stop and then they go. Are they they? They go to the range and like I got a plan, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna shoot this, but you really do need the train on your equipment even a civilian, because you're, if you plan to use that gun as a defensive weapon and carry it daily.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the biggest gap that I have seen since coming out and focusing more on the civilian side of things is, you know, we had, over the years of the pandemic, millions of new firearm owners come out and, like you alluded to earlier, I sincerely believe that there would be more gun legislation out there than there is currently. If people on the left we're less into guns. But because we have that scenario, we have folks who are interested, who will go out and they'll purchase a firearm because the Constitution guarantees us that right. But it doesn't require us to get any training or any education. And I think the biggest gap that I see is not just a function of it and how to deal with reloading, loading, what appropriate rounds I mean there's a whole umbrella that we can open up here but just what your legal responsibilities are.
Speaker 2:Saw a couple of really sad cases over the last couple of years of people shooting people who had driven into their driveway or just knocked on their front door. I mean scenarios like that where you hear that statement oh, I'd blow him away, or I would do this, that or the other, and then they do it and you think, oh my God, there's an absolute disconnect there. That's absolutely not legal. Now you're going to get tried for homicide, and probably justifiably so. It's just ridiculous. So the input of whether to shoot or not shoot, I think discriminatory practices, of whether that's a legal, justified shooting. But again, we're also seeing it in law enforcement more right, more scrutiny now there too than we've ever seen before. So, uh yeah, training has got to be crucial for, uh, the civilian firearm owner yeah, absolutely, and it doesn't have to be expensive and you don't need.
Speaker 1:You know, don't jump, don't jump, don't get a basic course. And all of a sudden I want to go do night vision, cqb, uh, rappelling down a house. You know, just start basic, intermediate, advanced and then move on to another system, but get your basic pistol down. Why did um, some of the guys out here did a course not that long ago and I sat in on it and it was concealed, carry. But it wasn't like hey, you know, concealed, it was actually shooting using their firearm, like you're gonna, and practicing shooting Like you know.
Speaker 1:I, when I, when I was doing IDPA for the longest time, up until about the last two matches, two or three matches, I was going, I was wearing the vest. You know, I'd wear the little vest jacket. It's easier to scale, I could better score. But I'm like I'm not going to wear a damn fish vest in real life. Come on, man, I'm 51 years old but I'm not going to be rolling like scoping. So now everything I do is I'm wearing a T-shirt. What am I going to wear in real life? I'm going to be wearing a T-shirt. I'm going to have an inside waistband holster in a T-shirt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And you're going to be in your car at a traffic light when that dude runs up with a tire iron.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean that's, yeah, that's real world, yeah, so that's why I'm saying, like people is like, get out there and practice with what you're going to carry and you know that you brought up the car thing, man, and this is the next. So I do the protectors foundation. That's where I do, like you know, try to get tourniquets and stuff out to law enforcement. But I want to put together a free course where everything happens around the car and not you inside the car, cause man. That is so, moto.
Speaker 1:When you see all these people and it looks great on social media where they're shooting out windows and blah, blah, blah the reality is you may get ambushed, yeah, you might get ambushed, but nine times out of ten when you see law enforcement shooting, what are they doing? They're walking up to a car. How about we talk about engaging? Someone's coming out of the car real quick, someone's reaching down and shooting, someone's doing this and that, and it doesn't have to be all live fire. You could do a sim rounds, you could do this and that, but I want a course. I want a 360 course with sim rounds.
Speaker 1:To start where it's just around a vehicle. Stop the approach, and not every time is going to turn into a shooting scenario Sure, sometimes you're going to go up there and then nothing's going to happen, you're going to walk away. But sometimes when you walk up there, they're going to be reaching, they're going to get in something, they're going to be running back to their car to get something, yeah. But I want to put together a course just like that. Just you know what, throw sedan out there and just have you know you can either have role players and then later on integrate. You know you start with a dry, then we go to the sim rounds. Later on you do live fire. You know you find a range where you could do some sort of live fire where you're shooting into a car. Right, you're shooting at something, you're shooting somewhere around the car, but I think that's your battle space. Right there, the car is your battle space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's huge. You know, from the various SWAT courses that I had over the years, I was fortunate enough to have been exposed to that kind of training and it's unfortunate that a lot of street officers don't get that, Because when you get to that portion that involves the ballistic barrier that an automobile is not, you find out pretty quickly just how many rounds will pass through doors, trunks, your A-post.
Speaker 2:I've seen, you know, nine mil go right through a door and glass. Yeah, you might get some deflection, but uh, as kyle lamb says, you just keep putting more rounds on target and you'll you'll get your hits. So it's just kind of wild to um. When you finally see how much of a bullet sponge a car can become, you realize what it's like.
Speaker 2:An aha moment like this is not cover this is, this is not good this is maybe my first stop on the way to get to some cover but, yeah, um like I see, I see the videos all the time.
Speaker 1:We all see them. They're shooting out the windows and, yes, you know, a couple cops did it while they're driving, shooting through the window, but they weren't. It's a lot different when bullets are coming back at you, oh yeah, and you want to get away from that. Bullet, magnet dashboards, everything just explode.
Speaker 2:I mean it, it's not adequate yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's uh, it's a great point because, uh, for the civilian, you know that is another area. You're exposed, you're out in public and potentially subject to the wiles of traffic and other people who may not have the good sense that you do. So it's definitely a need to see that kind of information and think about simple things like how do you carry Cause if you carry appendix? Are you putting that lap belt over that gun? Um, are you potentially crushing your bad bladder during an accident?
Speaker 1:You know, I mean what if you have a little gut?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah, I mean a lot of us. Do you know? Are you going to carry appendix and sit down like that folded up? I mean it's uncomfortable. So then what are your carry applications? But it's when you finally start actually trying and doing these things that you make those connections, and then your gear selection changes and or your firearm selection changes, and so the whole world of what you don't know is just enormous. Right, fill the library of Congress. But when you actually get out and train, I swear that's one of the best benefits about it is being able to learn and EDC oh my gosh, if I hear, like another ex-operator, what's their EDC?
Speaker 1:Listen, I want to know what the DEA guy did or the undercover NARC did and what he carried, and how he carried every day, and what they carried, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, that's different. That's a different application, for sure, but it's still very poignant, like something that you would want to know, because you can't be exposed. You're going to be around people who are going to be scrutinizing you a lot more. You're not going to have that man. Did you get a colostomy recently? No, it's. Yeah, that's an interesting application.
Speaker 1:You know, if you ever want to have fun, go to the airport and play, spot the Fed. Yeah, because I see it all the time. All the time where they're printing they're this, they're that, and a lot of it's because you could tell the feds who were, like, been a fed forever. You know, they got their t-shirts on their shorts and right, the gun is somewhere, but it's not sticking out of their waistband. You know, you can't see it. You don't see this big grip hanging out, yeah, but that's the thing, though, is that every day you can't. I love seeing the edc's where people are like they got three high cap mags, they got a flashlight, they got optics, they're carrying a fixed blade, they're carrying a turn kit. I'm like bro, I'm like I live outside of dc, I can't be rolling. Yeah, that edc might be cool if you're an austere environment, but when you're going to walmart, are you really going to be like packing all that?
Speaker 2:stuff. It's like the loadout scene from Commando, where you're getting ready to raid the island.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Yeah, I tell you you, carry what you can carry, but carry something.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:It'd be professional. I mean I could, I could knock all day long. But if you're a civilian and you're listening to this, get some training, get some competent training.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good line of progression. I think if one of the best things to do is get an all encompassing and a lot of concealed carry courses on a little bit of accuracy, maybe some reloading, maybe even some malfunctions, but then the gear you know, like how do you store your firearm All of those things become part of the whole world. That changes when you take firearms into your life and use them as a tool for defense. So it can't be discounted. Start with some local training and then work up. You know, look, look at other big schools that like like Gunsight I love Gunsight's 250 course. For a week long You're going to come out of there a very different shooter. For a week long you're going to come out of there a very different shooter. But there's probably even courses that are closer to a lot of folks geographically that if you really get into this thing and you really delve in man, the more you learn, the more you realize you didn't know.
Speaker 1:I tell people too. I do the IDPAs and all the other ones, but most of the time I'm shooting with people. One of the guys I shoot with is awesome man. He started shooting about three years ago. Amazon tech guy is like a 50 something year old Filipino dude, really cool, excellent shooter now, but he just started a few years ago, man. But competition is awesome because it's competition. You know 50 year old people were doing competition. You know so fun man. It's just it's competition. You know 50-year-old people, we're doing competition. You know it's so fun man. It's just it's cool. I mean, and yeah, it's not practical all the time, but it does get you used to doing reloads. It does get you used to pressing trigger presses and getting target and getting bullets in our range. Is it practical in everyday life? Eh, but it's fun and you're shooting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's some things that are direct translation. I mean it absolutely applies some tactics. Yeah, you wouldn't want to do in a defensive scenario, but, um, yeah, for sure there's definitely crossover. I recently uh started reviewing some long versionrange precision rifles and I took the Aero Precision Solus down to rifles only in South Texas. And Jacob Bynum man, he's amazing, I didn't know anything about the long-range precision.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know our ROE and I'm not shooting anything past 50 yards. The AR was like basically my whole jam. And so to reach out for the scope optic and two, three, four, five, and I didn't have military, I mean I went straight into law enforcement. So all of the things that I have to do in order to get on target, make my hit and still watch my bullet uh, make impact. That was, that was a big lesson. But then Jacob put me on a timer and he's like all right, I want you to stand next to your rifle, drop down, get that shot off, and I'm shooting 300 yards in a pretty stiff breeze. And I did it. I got down to like five seconds and flopped down on my stomach and throw that bolt and hit that target. And, and it's amazing, you're absolutely right when you start competing. When you put yourself under a little bit of pressure, what can you accomplish?
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks for bringing up the precision rifle and arrow precision too. I'm looking around my office here and I've literally built six arrow precisions and one was an AR-10. I built two or three 9mm ARs. I built in two different um, just five, five, six. I do want to build a six, five, but when you start thinking like I need and I remember since 700, three, oh, eight, um, but when you start thinking precision, man, that's a whole new. I really that is like when you brought that up, I'm like I really want to start precision shooting, yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then what am I going to do, man?
Speaker 1:I'm going to buy more damn guns. Holy crap. Yeah, it's like when I started a competition I was like you know what I really need? I really need a Walther PDP. I'm like why, why do I need one?
Speaker 2:Sure yeah. And then think about this, because the accoutrements that go along with your sporting gear. Oh my gosh, you're looking at a $400 or $500 bipod.
Speaker 1:Your glass is going to be. You need to do an article. We'll collaborate on an article called the Bargain Basement Long-Range Distance Shooter. The Bargain Basement with the $80 bipod or tripod, oh, you could do it. You could do 400. You know, um a few months ago I did a raffle and I won a um, a savage 270. So I'm like, and I got that and I started shooting and I was like I really need to start. Just, I didn't. I really need to start doing this. And I do, like the arrow, precision ones man yeah, yeah, yeah, it's uh savage.
Speaker 2:I liked Arrow Precision once. Man, yeah, yeah, savage makes a great product, but I will go back to Arrow. And you mentioned that you've built several ARs.
Speaker 1:Oh, before you go on there, let me tell you about my Arrow Precision. This is why I like Arrow Precision so much. The whole section where they have Blem products, yep, everything I buy from them. And hey, you know what? If you're going to, I'm going to tell you right off the bat I buy all the blem stuff and that's how I build and the blem is just like a blemish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you even tell. A lot of times you cannot tell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, by the way, after I shoot a few hundred rounds for it, yep, so let's, let's talk about this solace man.
Speaker 2:so I'm just telling people, like you know, yeah, I'm not buying high-end stuff here no, I, I got the uh pro chassis, uh solace and did a review on that and I and I used it in that training. It was um, precision rifle one and two, so it was like a week-long course and uh, condensed down to a few days. But cause I was the only one there, I was fortunate enough to be one-on-one with this amazing instructor and uh, the things that I was able to do, you know, starting from the beginning to where I ended up, uh, you know, shooting out to a thousand yards, um, shooting movers at 300 yards in 15 mile an hour, wind I mean, and getting repeated hits, like all of these things I wasn't necessarily capable of before I went to that course and I went back to, of course, gave the Precision or the Solus, a great review. I think it's an outstanding rifle. And then I told him I wanted to dig into it a little bit more.
Speaker 2:The 6.5 Creedmoor that I shot has a 22 inch barrel, and I was talking with Jacob, who has forgotten more about precision rifle than I'll probably ever even know Said, 26 inch barrel would probably get you more velocity and, and no doubt right, uh, not necessarily accuracy, but your, your velocity is going to be a little more impressive. So further reach potentially. And um so I contacted Arrow and I said hey, I want to do a soulless, but I want to do a 26 inch. They're like're like, great. Only catch is you've got to build it, I've got to build. I've never built a bolt gun. It's not a, it's not a problem, it's easy. Like I've built several arrow precision rifles, like you have, but I've never built a bolt gun.
Speaker 1:So they sent out all the kit and I'm excited man I just, you know, I was just looking on their website as I'm talking here and I'm like, oh Christ, here we go, here we go. I'm like, oh, there's a chassis. Maybe I'll just start getting the chassis and then next paycheck I'll get this. I mean, come on, sean, you're killing me man.
Speaker 2:I know I'm an enabler man. This is what I do.
Speaker 1:This is how I transition out of I. I built a hog gun. Even though I've been hunting it, I still need to go hog on. I built I specifically bought built a 300 blackout from arrow precision with a pistol. I think it's what a 10 and a half or eight average barrel. It's awesome, man. I've got a nomad suppressor on it. I just love that gun man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 300 is. I love that caliber man.
Speaker 1:Oh, me too.
Speaker 2:It's so sweet, Subs or supers, you know whichever direction you want to go, but you suppress that thing and bring it down to Texas. Man.
Speaker 1:You can do some hog eradication. Ah Christ, you know, I got so many people like every conversation I was like one of my buddies is trying to talk me into getting a Cicado and I'm like, well, I just bought this Wilson and then this and that, and it's like you know I got to start. Really, you know, I might have to take a look at these aero positions now. Yeah, yeah, let's see if they got the blems out there. Yet what's up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Solus is a new venture for them obviously right, like you've known about their AR-15s and AR-10s for a while, but they did a damn good job.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at them now, man, the chassis and everything, and that's what I like. I like the piecemeal. I personally like that. I like to be able to pick the trigger I want, I like to pick the barrel I want. I don't want to buy the bar, like to me. I bought the remington 700 a decade ago and you know I ended up putting all the magpul stuff on this and doing that and doing this and timney trigger and blah, blah. Yeah, I shot the thing maybe a dozen times, right, right, I want something that's going to be fun. Yeah, you know, you know six five sounds good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, six five is amazing. Uh, really taken a enjoying shooting that caliber over the last few years. Um, my first uh long distance attempt was uh with Steiner many years ago. I built a T five XI out in Greeley, colorado and Colorado, and went through the clean room, everything. I mean it was just this amazing experience seeing the dedication and how hard those people work to make such a quality optic and then built it, took it out, mounted it and went out to the range and shot 1,000 yards and with a .308,.
Speaker 2:That's a push, man, you're paddling by the time you get out there, but we still did it, and 6.5, though it just feels easier. It's almost like a cheat code. You mentioned staccato. It's another segue into like a cheat code. You mentioned staccato. It's another segue into a great cheat code. Yeah, yeah, you know. They're just like 30 minutes away from me. Their ranch is phenomenal. It's getting better all the time and of course, the product is. I just can't speak highly enough about it.
Speaker 1:Well, here's what happened. I started shooting. I was shooting carry optics. I was shooting a sig 320 legion x5 with carry optics. I think it's just incredible. But when you go to these competitions, everybody's shooting carry optics. So this guy, you know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna shoot in 1911. So I had a sig scorpion 1911 45. I'm over there shooting single stack. I'm like this thing is badass. And then I interviewed some guys. We talked about wilson con, but I had them on the show and I'm like, yeah, you know what, I'm gonna order one. And now I'm like I'm talking my staccato like with with you, now with my buddy. And then I had some authors on. We're talking about it. Oh my god. Like, oh, christ, here I go again.
Speaker 2:It's okay, man, it's okay, it's all about the journey right, I'll tell you this.
Speaker 2:I have a few firearms, as you might imagine potentially the same problem that you have. But the more I use different firearms the more I appreciate a hammer fired gun. You know I love my PDPs. I've got a P365 that I carry frequently. But striker fired has limitations that you can train past. Obviously you recognize that. You know I was at a TPC, a Tactical Performance Center, three-day handgun mastery course down in San Antonio and there was a former border patrol agent down there with his Glock and man, he was just absolutely rocking it. But I think for the average person to pick up a hammer-fired gun, the difference between their performance and someone who picks up a striker-fired gun without instruction is significant, the difference that you'll notice. And then of course anything can be trained past. But yeah, the staccato, I'm just super high on.
Speaker 1:Well, man, you brought up the Border Patrol. When I started out in the Border Patrol it was a Beretta 96D think it was, oh wow, and it had like the the 3 000 pound trigger pull. Yeah, it was a deck and it was like, and the thing, would I sweat so much because I was humping up and down the mountains that I would rust it every night yeah clean up every night, man my issue gun was a 92, and sometimes, sometimes it would fire two or three shots.
Speaker 2:Really what a trigger, pretty exciting.
Speaker 1:Well, brother, I appreciate you coming on the show. Everybody make sure we got to go to Pew Pew Tactical. Please Know that, and then we got to check out Aeroprecisions, Takato and damn near everything else we're going to be doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's some good stuff out there, man, we're very fortunate to be living in the time that we are. We have so many different options out there, right, it's not easy to afford them, but there are ways. Like you mentioned, the blend map. I think that's a great avenue to go.
Speaker 1:You know, as we were talking here, I'm looking and I'm like there's two chassis blems right now.
Speaker 2:And I'm like son of a bitch. Yep, yeah, that's good stuff, man.
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