#444 | Joe Fasanella | Trinity Training Complex | NYPD to Homeland Security

Joe Fasanella joined The Protectors® to talk about his pivot from NYPD Counterterrorism to becoming a federal agent.  We talk training, policing, small business ownership, and a ton more!  

Transcript

Trinity Training Complex and NYPD Experience

Speaker 1 0:17

Hey , welcome to the protectors podcast . I'm here with Joe Fesson . Joe , what's going on , brother ?

Speaker 2 0:22

Same old my man .

Speaker 1 0:24

We are in person , yes , and the beautiful Staten Island , yes .

Speaker 2 0:29

The forgotten borough , the forgotten borough .

Speaker 1 0:31

Oh my gosh . You know I've never been to Staten Island . Now I'm like a veteran of the NYPD . I mean all over New York , but Staten Island's a different placement . I like being out here because there is a lot of space . Now , where are the Trinity training complex ?

Speaker 2 0:48

Correct .

Speaker 1 0:49

And where did ? Where did this concept come from ?

Speaker 2 0:53

So this is about . I would like to say it's a few year project , but it's really like almost a 10 year project . We decided on Staten Island for a lot of reasons . Number one I live here , I was born here , raised here , probably going to die here . The entry through the manner is that's the only borough that would kind of even tolerate or maybe even be palatable for this kind of complex . It's typically a red city compared to the rest of , you know , the five boroughs . I consider this the last line of defense when it comes to actual , real New Yorkers still being here . That's wind .

Speaker 1 1:25

Okay , yeah , we don't know guys , but you know , what's really cool about this is doing it in person podcast is it's real man . This is real as you get . This isn't like zoom , this isn't stream yard and all the other stuff , but you were you started off in the PD , right ?

Speaker 2 1:41

Yes , I started off in NYPD . I got on the job in July of 04 . Spent about a little under 13 years there and then , back in 2016 , I flipped over to the air motion service under DHS and it was just , it was time kind of . Everything kind of happened for a reason . I was always looking for a fed job . Even when I first got on this job , prior to it , I was an intern at Secret Service , so I had post 9 11 , I joined the Marine Corps , went from the Marine Corps pretty much in my junior or senior year of college , finished my undergrad and I was doing the reserve thing . I had gotten my internship with Secret Service down on Adams Street in Brooklyn with the hopes of never touching a PD uniform but just going right into federal work . And unfortunately I didn't have enough work experience . They like , like that . I had military , but they didn't really . You know , I had nothing really to hang my hat on because I was just a college kid . They said , oh , go , go into the PD for a little bit , a year or two , get it . Get , you know , cut your teeth a little bit and then come on over . And that was kind of like my plan and then got into the police department that July . I graduated college that May , got into the police department in July of 04 . Immediately got out to the 61st precinct which is in a ship's of a Brooklyn , was doing that for a little bit and I got activated with the military .

Speaker 2 2:55

So I did my deployment with the Marine Corps , went to Fallujah in 2006 , came back and during my transition back to like PD life , I actually was taking like a intro to you know bomb awareness or some some bullshit class and the guy that was in the class was showing really antiquated pictures and I said , hey , you know , I just left Iraq . I said I have these cool like this cool you know file of like all different things that we uncovered while I was there . I said Let me give it to him . So I handed to him and the very next day he goes hey , man , I went through that dumb drive . He goes that's some seriously cool stuff . Like where where's this from ? I said Well , I said I only left the contrary , like not even 90 days ago . I'm like literally just just fresh out of Fallujah . I said , and I was working with an Intel team that had you know carte blanche , the old , different types of evidence . So I kind of picked and chose and always took tough in because I thought it was just . You know , I'm going to want to look back on this stuff one day . And in doing so he goes hey , man , I , I like what you've been through , I like where you've been , I like what you're going through and I think you have some value , maybe with a friend of mine . Let me introduce you to this guy .

Speaker 2 3:58

So Richie the bomb guy , the bomb tech . He introduces me to this guy , ed Sloan . Ed is unbeknownst to me at the time , a first grade detective which I didn't even know the difference . I was so boot on the job . I didn't realize what the value of a first grader was . Like a first graders , like you know , high on the point totem pole , like this is very few of them .

Speaker 2 4:18

And he introduces me to Ed and Ed sitting down with another guy , pete , and they say , hey , we want to , we want to talk to you . So they invite me to the counterterrorism division which is in Coney Island , brooklyn , and I go and I sat there and they put me in this library and I sat down with Ed and Pete and they just talk , much like we're talking now and over the course of the conversation . Eventually he goes hey , you know I like some of the experiences you've been through . We want to put that to good use . But understand that this is a very passive unit , like we don't kick indoors , we don't , none of that happens . But the terrorism value is there . So would you be interested in maybe applying for counterterrorism division ? I was like Well , I mean , doesn't everybody want to be here ? It's post 9 , 11 . The unit's brand new , it's sexy , it's hard , super fun .

Speaker 1 5:00

Yeah funded .

Speaker 2 5:01

You know , of course I want to do that was a patrol cop . He goes , look I'm , I goes , I'm just a detective , but let me see what I could do . I'll put in a good word . I said Well , I appreciate that . So fast forward , about a month , maybe two months . I'm actually in the middle of a trial prep for homicide . If I found a gun that was killed the guy , they had it on top of an elevator and I recovered it . So I was a piece of the evidence chain for the detectives that were , you know , doing the enhancement .

Speaker 2 5:28

I'm in the middle of that and I'm upstairs with the squad and I'm , like you know , completely unrelated to anything terrorism or any , you know , transfers or anything like that and the boss that on the desk is like hey , come , come downstairs . So immediately I think I'm in trouble Because I'm like there's no way I'm getting called down to the desk for anything good . And I get down there and , lieutenant , down there is actually a good dude , I used to drive him a lot . He's like hey , he's like come over here . So I go behind the desk Because I would never go behind the desk Because back in the days we had respect for our bosses and he's like come here , come here . And he's pointing at the telephone message .

Speaker 2 5:59

I'm like what ? I don't even know what the fuck this is , you know . So I look into it and it says , as a midnight hours , you know , plf and all are transferred to counterterrorism , counterterrorism division . So I'm looking at it and look at him and I'm looking at him , he's looking at me . He's like he goes , you can go away now . I'm like okay . So he's gonna like say something , you know . And I go back up to the squad and the detectives looking at me like you're all right , are you in trouble ? I'm like yeah , I said I'm good , I said I'm actually transferred , I'm done . I said I can't even do the trial . I said I'm going on transferring as a midnight hours tonight I had no idea what the hell that meant . They're like to where I'm like counterterrorism division and everything just stops .

Speaker 2 6:35

They're like fuck the case , let's , let's say , all of a sudden they're pulling , like you know , little bottles out from their bags and stuff like that he stepped in shit kid and have a drink and I'm like whoa , like this is another side of the department I've never seen , you know . So it's cool . It was , like you know , it was pretty much wet behind the years . And here I am , this like super junior dude transferring to a very senior unit , and it was . It was nothing but trials and tribulations . I spent the first probably two years just trying to figure out my place amongst really seasoned people like we had , you know , the proverbial first grade detectives . Guys who were , you know , cut their teeth and you know organized crime Making names for themselves in narcotics and all these things . And then they had this like white shield , mix it amongst it and it's like , well , where do you fit in this whole thing ? Well , my question was well , where do you guys fit in this whole thing ? Like you know , why are you here ? You know , you just hanging your hand on the fact that you were this , that the other , like you know , we're doing terrorism work which pre 9-11 really didn't exist , and now this unit is just boom , mm-hmm .

Speaker 2 7:33

I come to find out that the guy that kind of vouched for me , the guy Ed , was a naval intelligence officer . He had spent a lot of time in Cuba , you know , doing get-most-off , and he was one of the people that they valued as someone who says has knows a little thing or two and he can kind of Read between the lines when they're interviewing people , and that's how I kind of that's kind of how I got in . So I ended up getting transferred . I didn't go right to the division , I ended up going to a little offshoot which was Office of Emergency Management .

Speaker 2 8:01

So it was a little offshoot down in Cabin Plaza , down by the Brooklyn Bridge , and I was fucking miserable . It was the worst , the worst thing I ever did . But in retrospect , if I was on , if I was an 18 year veteran , it would have been awesome because it was like the place you go to die , yeah . But with three years , four years on the job , I was like , ah , it's not really where I want to be . So I was begging , you know , clawing my way back to the division to get back to terrorism stuff . But you listen , saying I got , I'd spent about a year there .

Speaker 2 8:26

I was doing like watch control watch command , which was um Kind of like you have a finger on the pulse of everything that goes on , so every agency has a representative in that building . So I learned a little bit of interagency work and I spent my , spent my year just basically Watching things unfold in real time . So I had the papal visit , we had the crash in the Hudson , so these are all things that I was like I lived through and I and in retrospect I'm like , wow , these are really notable events .

Transition From NYPD to the Fed

Speaker 2 8:50

But at the time I didn't really mean much of anything to make because New York that happens , stuff like that happens all the time , I'd say on any given day back , especially back then .

Speaker 1 8:59

It was just wild . This is New York , is so big man . Yeah , there was like 40,000 officers .

Speaker 2 9:05

So when I got on the job there was about 38,000 I could . We're nowhere near that .

Speaker 2 9:08

No yeah , you know that's . That's a bonnet contention we are , you know there's been a mass exit . That's because most of the hiring was right after 9-11 . So our numbers pre 9-11 were smaller . Then we bumped up , you know , with funding and all this other stuff and in the post 9-11 push when people actually wanted to be a cop . And then I'd say for me , I saw the transition of people . Son , to say , when we look elsewhere Was probably around the time . I like to show on bell shooting , hmm , which was the first time where I had ever experienced like riots .

Speaker 2 9:37

Yeah and then that kept happening , that it was occupied Wall Street . Zuccott about like yeah , like these things were like great , these things were happening and happening , and like what would be a small pocket of resistance would turn into bigger and bigger , and then eventually to what we see now , now , now , today . So I think I'd like to say that it's kind of started with that .

Speaker 1 9:57

Now , when do you make the jumps to the feds ?

Speaker 2 9:58

2016 . Okay , so I left in 16 .

Speaker 1 10:01

So you had a decent amount . Were you doing terrorism all the up until then ?

Speaker 2 10:05

yeah , from from about three years on right up until the end , okay , and that's , you get your way back to the division , or so I made it , made my way to the division .

Speaker 2 10:15

I eventually spend about eight years in the C burn team so doing Ken bio , rad , mucus explosives , and that's kind of where I learned a Lot of cool stuff . So my first project was um . I Was overseeing the suicide bomber interdiction team , so we had some technology that came in from Israel . Mm-hmm , I was basically handed like a 500,000 dollar machine and said , hey , the Israelis are gonna come teach you how to use this figure . I had to implement it . It was like a crash course and how to like set up photography . It was like a big camera that was on a gimbal mount . I have no way , I'm a knuckle dragon marine at the time . So I have those crazy stuff and like they like , don't drop the lens at . The lens alone is 50 grand . I'm like , oh my god , but how many do we have of these ? Like four . I'm like , oh my god , like , and I'm responsible for this . I was freaking out and that turned into bigger and bigger stuff and we basically would the .

Speaker 2 11:01

The division has like this unlimited budget . Right , they have the , the account and all the money goes through the division , so even other units benefited from . Can a terrorism having this one way . You know two-way street with the federal budget , and it was constantly flexed . You know people always , you know we need to kiss the ring of counterterrorism are to make sure we get this unit , that truck , this , that though . So we had a lot of cool equipment . We had a lot of cool training . You know it wasn't uncommon that , like you know , you'd be getting email in the morning I go . Doctor Jane Oxley from Harvard is in town . You know blah blah , blah , blah blah . She's gonna be doing a class on , you know , improvised explosives .

Speaker 1 11:38

Well , think about it . New York is like the epitome of counterterrorism and , and when you talk about the budget and you being on that unit as a junior Officer , she's amazing . That's where , like , I can imagine your experience bringing it into the Fed world . But not also that . But everything happened since then . You know , with understanding the realities of what you need , sure , realistically To mount a counterterrorism operation , but also to be able to deal with , like a stressful environment , like when you'd say you're dealing with this , hundreds of thousand dollars of equipment , you , then you also have to think about , okay , I'm like , if you drop this , that's responsibility , man , yeah . But then when you get into like , okay , well , it's not just the equipment , it's like what does it do ? Right , how does it do it ? You have to be super . You can't just be a knuckle-dragger anymore for sure , for sure .

Speaker 2 12:28

You have to understand that camera sees Heat , so you're ninety point six degrees roughly . That camera has the ability to cool down . Let's just say arbitrarily like negative three hundred . So any change in heat that's coming out off your body or something that's blocking heat from coming off your body Get silhouetted as a thermal anomaly and that's how we determine . All right , is that person concealing something below their clothes ? The trials and tribulations of stopping people for those few .

Speaker 2 12:57

You know years that we were kind of getting the system up and running and trying to figure out how to get it . That was great , as gray area stuff which is going to tie into why the company's called condition was why the call . My initial company was called condition gray , because Terrorism work at the time was neither black nor white , because we were still kind of figuring it out post on 11 policing . It was very different than pre 911 policing . I won't pretend to explain that .

Speaker 2 13:19

I even understand what a 90s cop went through in New York Cuz . That was some crazy friggin times . But I also can't imagine a 90s cop ever fathoming what's happened post on 11 , you know , if they had retired and saw that . I mean we're dealing some crazy stuff and there's no shortage . I say this whole time , isn't ? There's no shortage of assholes out there . The activity post 911 was just as rampant as it was pre 911 . I think we were just more open to looking for it . I think JTTF and units like that , they really had their hands full . And there's a lot of inter-agency issues too , like between at the time I remember was like counter terrorism , jttf in television .

Speaker 2 13:55

Now I think since I've left the job they've merged and you know like it's . You know there's a lot of like weird .

Speaker 1 14:00

Well , now that that's the other thing is . Now you're in the Fed world , you understand the Fed , you're on my god yeah yeah , we're not gonna . I don't really want to get in too much about your current . That job is with the fans and everything Cuz . I understand the implications of that , but I could understand leaving such a big agency to go work for the feds . I can understand wanting to do something different , something that's not going to limit you , something's going to give you more of a budget .

Speaker 2 14:26

For sure .

Speaker 1 14:27

And you're not . You know , and I'd imagine 13 years on a job , you're going to have some sort of guilt of leaving .

Speaker 2 14:33

Yeah , like you know how you manage 13 years .

Speaker 1 14:36

I'm vested . Do I leave ? What was that taking that step like ?

Speaker 2 14:39

And it was a little easier for a guy like myself at the time because I had pretty much burnt my bridges in the division . I had an issue with a boss who really the best thing that ever happened to me was he jammed me out . You know he came in late in my career and I was still a white shield who was young on the job but also senior in the unit . That was kind of an anomaly . There was only a handful of us that had probably less than 10 years on and we happened to be this now senior people in the unit . So you get this young hotshot boss . He kind of came in with a little bit of a yeah , I'm going to do things my way . But reality is in that a unit like that bosses were only really good for like overtime slips and days off you know , like I don't really need you for the actual expert stuff because you're not really much of anything .

Speaker 2 15:22

And this guy I actually started out liking him and I thought we had a little bit of rapport , but when everything , when push came to shove , he actually tried to jam me up for military paperwork so he screwed himself . It led to a federal case and the rest is kind of for another day .

Speaker 1 15:39

Yeah , departmentally case , for another day , the military deployment .

Speaker 2 15:44

Yeah . So he went the wrong way about it and it gave me , when everything was said and done , gave me the ability to kind of choose what I want to do in my life and at the time I could have went back to the job . But I had this federal offer and I literally was on military leave . I came back from military leave , I came back to the job for one day , that's it out , and by I was on a Thursday . And the funny thing is about NYPD , like there's no like , it's not like ceremony , like unless you're like a white shirt , you know big time chief .

Speaker 2 16:15

But at the time it was I was married and my ex and I we went up to one PP to turn in my stuff and at the time there was a guy who was being federally indicted , who was a chief , who was being indicted because of some scandal that happened with licensing division , which is kind of ironic . That I don't I have the CCW kind of foothold now but ironically he's getting a walkout , even though he's going to jail or going to do some time or whatever the heck was going on with his life . He was under the watchful eye of the federal federal government . So this guy's getting a full walkout , full ceremony .

Speaker 2 16:47

You know people stand in saluting and here I am a cop and good standing and you know what I got ? I got to go up to this half barn door where they put a pillow up and a little pillow has like a little bit of like gold trim and it says you know , congratulations on your retirement . And you put your shield down on it and they go thank you for your service . Just cookies and coffee in the next room . And this minute you turn around , you know what you hear Clank , clank . That's thrown into a box with every other fucking cop and my wife at the time she looked at me and she goes , that's it .

Speaker 1 17:16

I said , yeah , that's it .

Speaker 2 17:17

She's like that's it , this is , this is the job . She's like . You killed yourself for this place . You gave your best years to this place . I said onto bigger and better things , sure shit . And eventually I would by . Next to that , following Tuesday , I was in my New York field office doing my you know initiation and I remember I hit three hours of traffic that day because my office was in Queens and I remember driving home going fuck , I shouldn't have done this . I can't stand traffic Like it's .

Speaker 1 17:47

Like it's the bane of my existence in New York , you know .

Speaker 2 17:50

But I go into the academy . I kept my mouth shut , kept my ears open , because now I'm older dude , going through a federal academy and just don't show your cards and little by little , I , you know , I'd try to put myself . Where did you work ? Worked at an MPD , yeah , but you could shoot . So you guys are not known for that . I train on the outside . I'm kind of training . I have a company oh , what do you do ? I am this company called Condition Gray . What is that ? You know ? Immediately the next day they come in . They're like hey , man , you , I've seen your products before . Okay , all right .

Speaker 2 18:24

So by the time I left the academy , people who had the bag was out . They would try to throw me all sorts of curveballs just for fun , and you know I'm going to navigate them . I've been through seeing , seeing a lot of cool things over my life and navigate a lot of weird stuff . Life was good . So I graduate , I get to my field office Right just prior to COVID .

Speaker 2 18:44

I was selected to work on Viper , which is like our kind of like our ground team , which is kind of still kind of in its figuring it out kind of stage . It's kind of a weird unit , but then they say nobody wants to go out there . I wanted a little break from flying . I was having issues with my ex which would eventually lead to a divorce , and I joined Viper and Viper was supposed to be like a two year stint and two years because COVID turned into three , which turned into almost four , and then in that time the agency had a lot of , I think , interesting dynamics . We were being used for more things . I ended up going to the DC riots , some riots in other parts of the country , riots in my own home city . I'm seeing people at the border all over the place .

Speaker 2 19:29

Border , border was in . That's a whole . I was just there . Border was interesting and , as NSSEs , let's backtrack .

Speaker 1 19:43

You mentioned that you started the company .

Starting Over

Speaker 1 19:45

Where did this all start ?

Speaker 2 19:46

I mean like it started because when I was jammed up . So I get jammed up and I get booted from Canada terrorism because I have to go , you know , rub a gun squad , so to speak , and I get sent to central booking , which is where we're talking about with Aaron , and I spent a few months there and in that time , while I'm waiting for my case to kind of fall into place , fighting with lawyers and the PBA , trying to figure out how to get back to work , back to doing the real work , and in that time there was a point where I was like , well , what if I don't ? What if I can't get back to it ? I just spent a good portion of my life establishing these skills that very few cops have . What if this job , what if I don't have a job ? When this is said and done ? So I was kind of like , man , let me take some money out , let me establish something . So I start investing in myself , I start seeking schools that I knew I could go to and I end up going like self paid my way through Darcy level one , Darcy level two and all these shooting courses and I said , let me see what's out there . How do I structure this if I was to do this here Because there was nobody out here .

Speaker 2 20:55

And I come back and in that time , while I'm at Darcy , I had an incident where I went to go dip out of a car under nods and my sling got caught around the seatbelt because my rubber band failed . So check that in the back of the box , because we're going to circle back to that and I finished the drill on . I was completely humbled by that course . That course is an absolute kick in the nuts , Like if you think you have any understanding of like close quarters combat , go there and then figure out if you really do . Because by Wednesday I was like my head was like in between my legs and my tail was stuck .

Speaker 2 21:29

I was like man , this is an ass kekka , but it was a good ass kekka because it opened up my eyes to , as Richard put it , you know , you don't know what you don't know and we know . We have this like King Kong theory in New York , where the NYPD were the biggest , were the best . We have this , we have that . We're still so far behind and I'll get to that . So condition gray opens . I don't even know if I was legally allowed to have it in the eyes of the NYPD at the time , I didn't give a fuck , which is pretty much my attitude , going forward with it , with the job , and you have to have an outlet .

Speaker 1 21:59

You have . It's not just an outlet , you have to have an out for sure . You know , like when I was , when I was going through the Fed , I was having some issues there . I had like five or six different things , like if a happens , I'm going to do B . Yeah , b happens , I'm going to do C , and if I got to go back to A , I'll go back to A .

Speaker 2 22:14

So yeah , sometimes you got to take a few steps back to go , to go forward and there's like this unrelenting , like grasp that , like policing has over you like , oh what , I can't do anything else . You absolutely can't do anything else . I laugh because I think , like three year cops not seeking a Fed job are out of their minds . They are out of their minds Because in those three years you're going to put your hands on more people and interact with more people than any Fed world . You know that . You know it's my . If you saw my two sets of handcuffs and I wasn't even like this , like super active cop , but like my Fed cop , my Fed cuffs and like my NYPD cuffs , so like once pristine , you could tell they've only been used in like a training environment .

Speaker 2 22:54

Yeah , the other ones are like there's like probably DNA on it . Still , you could probably like said like an okay , I'll logical dig on them , they're just nasty , but my philosophy , too , is like Treat it like a military enlistment .

Speaker 1 23:05

You want to serve . They'll become a cop for four or five years .

Speaker 2 23:08

You don't have to do a career man .

Speaker 2 23:09

Right , right , go move on and it pays off . And I find that NYPD is funny . So a few guys that were coming on my job would sit on the panel and I knew that they were coming in or knew they were coming into a panel interview . I'd be like , how'd they do ? And they're like , oh they did terrible . And I'm like why they're like they wouldn't answer the questions with them . They would only answer the questions with wait . I'm like because that's the we is all they got . I said it's programmed that the big blue walls coming , it's coming back up . And NYPD was good about that .

Speaker 2 23:43

And I think a lot of these guys have a hard time individualizing themselves as something beyond the team . So they come on the panel interviews . They botched the questions because the person on the panel is like , no , tell me what you did . I don't care what you guys did , I want to know what you did . And that's kind of a inertia . So we actually started doing a couple of years ago we would do federal job , like workshops , to kind of tell guys , hey , how do you navigate these ? Because it took me forever to get a job . I went through the bureau , I went through the A , went through all these different things and it took me a hundred tries before I finally got the job I wanted . And you know , like anything else , like the stars have to kind of align , like you have to fit the right , you know what they want for that hiring process .

Speaker 2 24:26

Let's just put it that way , you know , for lack of better words .

Speaker 1 24:28

you know they may need to get the feds are hemorrhaging now too , because I was like I retired March , but you know I went in 2000 and 2001 was a huge push . That's going to become a special agent with customs back then . But now everybody's retired and now trying to find people to qualify and qualify at applicants .

Speaker 2 24:49

They let them go over the past 10 years . Yeah .

Speaker 1 24:52

You know , growing up on the East Coast , you know because I grew up in Jersey and it was like everybody wanted to be a cop . I talked to another captain the other day and he was like you know , we used to get like we hadn't hired an announcement . We had 800 people . Now we're lucky if we get 80 or 90 and out of that we're lucky if we get we can get a handful that can make it through the process . So then it comes down to like the quality of people you're getting is a lot different , but in there there is quality . And then we have to look at the big picture .

Speaker 1 25:24

Is because there's such big agencies and I always thought I'm like ah , you're NYP , you're going to be able to go to training in this and that , but now you're in these small departments , you're not going to get training . You're lucky if you get the quala with 50 rounds or more . You're lucky , right . And there's just simply no training . Use a force Good luck with that . Yeah , training , good luck with that . Blue on blue force training or anything , good luck with that . So you get into the gear . But then when do you start doing the training ?

Speaker 2 25:54

So training started in 2015 . My very first class is ironic it was a night vision class because I was hot off the Darcy you know , the Darcy grad , and I was coming to bring this and that's going to bring everyone in . And my first night vision class was down in South Jersey shooting club and we failed it . But man , the skills were all over the place . There are people that just have gear , just to have gear , and there are people that were good to go , but for the most part it was a hodgepodge mix of people .

Speaker 2 26:22

And what I realized was is that before we can start doing stuff like that , we have to kind of solidify the fact that people need to have good weapons manipulations . So we spent the kind of took a step back and said , all right , well , what do we need to build people up so they could take classes like that ? And the answer was we need to do basic basic pistol , basic rifle , basic pistol , basic rifle . And we just loaded the schedule for years , probably like two or three years , to build up enough alumni , just so that when you do a specialty class , you have that , that certain caliber of student who can step in and not , you know , jeopardize the safety of class , because it's different out here . We're not born with guns in our granddaddy's rifle Weapon safety is kind of a thing that's kind of implemented as they kind of fall into their own .

Speaker 1 27:05

You know you just brought up a great point is like you think about how many cops , how many feds , how many everything live within this . Like these square miles and like the laws and everything don't make it conducive to go and get even ammo to train on your own . And our do this . Our find a range that you could do not just like , a flat range or nothing dynamic at all .

Speaker 2 27:25

If anything , you're just shooting paper , no , no no , unless you're doing competitions , you ain't moving a gun anywhere on any of these ranges and they're just small .

Speaker 2 27:33

I mean , we're looking at Staten Island . We have a couple of really nice ranges , but you're still dealing with antiquated mindset , that you have older range officers who are dealing with a younger generation who's now like a GWAT level or era person who wants to be dynamic , shoot from a holster and that's part of their job , maybe , and they're like freaking out about that . Easy there , fellow Can't do a rhythm Six round body .

Speaker 1 27:56

Well , think about this too . Rhythm drill . You have like big departments too , or even little ones , a lot of times a range guys are like old school , old school , oh yeah , yeah . And . I think they started this to hot rub off .

Speaker 2 28:08

Yeah , I think that we're getting past that now , but there was a point where , like you know , if you were shooting quick , they're like , oh , we can't do that .

Speaker 1 28:15

So tell us about this complex . So this place is and you showed me around . I'm seriously impressed , Thank you . Thank you very much .

Speaker 2 28:23

I love this place . It's kind of like an extension of my brain , which is kind of sad to say because it's so weird , but it's definitely me . So one of my students , bob , who's now my business partner , at one point about four or five years ago he's like hey , man , where you going with all this ? I said I had no idea . He's like you got to do , you got to have something in mind . I said , well , he's like , what's the end state of doing classes and putting out products ? I said , well , I guess to retire and have something , you know , always have a back , you know , fall back . You know dad got kids , got college , you know , and then they're young , I know I had to do something . He's like well , in a perfect world , what would you want ? I said , well , I'd want a facility that I could do everything you know indoor , live fire , cqb , night vision , whatever , If you , you know , the sky's the limit . He goes all right . Where would you put it ?

Explore and Build New York Training

Speaker 2 29:13

So we spent about the first year of looking in like Pennsylvania for large plots of land . Then we all was like , yeah , it's too far . We were losing all our weekends , you know , with our kids and stuff . So then there was Jersey . And then that was still kind of far and the gun laws are weird and things were changing . And then we were looking into Long Island and I was like well , fuck Long Island because I hate the parkway . And eventually I told him with a straight face I said I want to be in the city . He's like where . I said stand down . He's like , well , that's convenient . I said it is because we have three Rangers here . We have a red leading kind of clientele who are kind of pro gun , pro cop , pro military . I said honestly , like the last real New Yorkers left , I said everyone else is like transients . Even after COVID you still got that transient community of people that are coming out from like God knows where to try to make the name here and I think like when you're in Staten Island you're dealing with an actual , real New Yorkers . Like there's a different vibe when you go to like a local story that you can kind of feel it . And so I told him stand out .

Speaker 2 30:15

And then that started about a year or more of just looking at building after building and the price is here on astronomical . If I told you my overhead for this building you'd fall off your chair , but it had to be built . It's like if you build it , they will come so fast forward to last July we found this complex . I passed this building 50 times in our search , but this building was in mid reconstruction and at the point where we were just about to give up , this place finally came available . So we came . We looked at it because we were looking at another spot down the block and it was a lot smaller . But then we got off for this one and we're like you know what ? Fuck it , let's take it . So we go , we walked the property . Everything was as you kind of see it now , but just wide open and it was off to the drawing board .

Speaker 2 31:03

Well , how are we going to ? What's the aesthetic ? I want New York , I said . I want to feel New York . I want to walk in here and say , all right , that's the grind of a New Yorker . So we got this graffiti artist who me , him and another staffer , a good kid Frank . We decided to go to Manhattan and we went to , like you know , lower-glowery side where , like some of the coolest art is , you know where people are literally tagging up everything under the sun , and we spent the entire day day drinking and looking at graffiti , eating ice cream , eating food and like eating Cuban food , like we made a day of it and we just went from place to place taking pictures , Like I love that , I love that , I love that . And then we came back and we kind of set up a read book and we were like , all right , well , this is the graffiti we wanted to bring here and that's kind of how it came to be . But then , with tweaks , so you know , you'll see places in there like oh , it's the pink houses the pink houses .

Speaker 1 31:55

Yeah , so for the people who are listening to this , there's actually a room and it has like just incredible graffiti everywhere . It's not just cop-centric too . I mean , you got Biggie in there and you got like everybody you could imagine , oh , we're gonna stand out .

Speaker 2 32:06

And so you have that Wu-Tang , it's like you can't grow up here without at least listening to one song , knowing at least one song by heart . But there's references in there . So , like you know , my first field office was next to Queens Ridge , so when we first go to do ops , that's our homage to that . The pink houses I had bricks thrown at me on the roof because I was sitting on top of a fire department building doing counter gun stuff with that same system I was telling you about earlier . So the pink houses I never worked in a 7.5 . It's the first time I've ever been out .

Speaker 2 32:33

It was like a mythical place for me because I was a Brooklyn South guy and then I was like , oh , we're going to the Brooklyn North to do this . And I'm like , oh , it sounds scary , it's funny because I got a cop really good friends with it . He's a housing cop . He's like you were on top of that . Ugh , I was like why ? I'm like I don't know , it sounds like a good idea at the time . The city's wild . It's definitely worse than it's ever been now and that kind of this place is kind of like an answer to well , if the job's not going to give you the training and there's no resource for you elsewhere , what would you ?

Speaker 1 33:04

have . Now . Where are you bringing in the instructors from ?

Speaker 2 33:07

A lot of them came with me over from condition gray because they were tritured and tested . We're a funny place , so we shoot for our job . In other words , if you want to work on our staff in any capacity that you're going to touch a firearm , you have to shoot first , because everybody here has these tremendous resumes and it's just you know . 10 pages of just . You know I love me . Okay , you're going to go with my director training who's a fucking , he's a shooter , he's a mother motherfucker of a shooter and you're going to go with him and you're going to shoot for your job . Do I want you to shoot like him ? No , not everyone can , I can't . But you should be pretty close , because if you're going to step in front of a crowd of your peers , they should look at you and say , well , that's where I can get to . And if you can't do that , I can't just hang your resume on the target . You have to be able to show it , and I think that that has created animosity because people are like oh well , I don't want to shoot for my job , then you don't need to work for us , I need other companies to go follow and I'm okay with that .

Speaker 2 34:17

That term comes from my current job , because the early post-911 agency was hey , you want to come work for us , come shoot for your job . And they had two buses and we always get told the story , the lineage of how the service was created , and it's like there's two buses one for those who passed and went on to training and one that went back to whatever job they came from . I always thought that was impressive and when you look around the industry , some of these people are still in the industry because they've now they've left up my agency and now they're on their own and they're doing their things . And my original staff shirts were Burgundy and Maroon for the people who were with me the longest , because that's a homage to those instructors .

Speaker 2 34:56

So there's a lot of . We never do anything . That's like unpurposeful , so to speak . If that's even a word , there's always like a hidden agenda behind it . Like , oh , why do they wear that color ? Well , also for instructors who have been with me since day one , because they shop for their jobs and we have some sick instructors on our staff .

Speaker 1 35:14

Well , that's the thing too is like when you brought up the resume , especially when it comes to firearms a tactical , you could be former , whatever , and you might not be a good instructor , you could shoot me , whatever , but to be able to shoot and instruct it's a tough thing .

Speaker 2 35:30

New Yorkers are like tough people , like to look and press . But you could out shoot the shit out of them and they'd be like , yeah , he's good , yeah , whatever , yeah , whatever he's good . Like it's like the guy just friggin' crushed the drill . Like give him credit . Where credit is there ? That guy's good , you know whatever . That's just New York mantra . But we've established ourselves . I'm sure we have people that love us . We have people that hate us .

Speaker 1 35:53

There's always going to be haters . It could be the best company in the world , but it's I don't know if it's Ego or envy are just unknowing . For sure A lot of it is unknowing because they don't know what goes on behind the doors For sure . Now , trinity I love that word , I love it . It's so cool . But also , what's your vision now ?

Speaker 2 36:10

To stay alive . So we opened the doors quietly . We didn't know if we were going to have protesters outside our front door . We didn't push it , we didn't like advertise it , we just said let's let the doors breathe and see what walks in . And we've survived .

Speaker 2 36:27

We're actually just hit a year this year that we've been in this building . November would be really a year since we've been open , but we've had a crazy year . So in the past , since November , so however many months that is , we've had close to 800 students for just CCW alone . So basically , july we take over the building . August we start construction . September this crazy thing called the Bruin case All of a sudden just emerges out of nowhere . We knew it was common , but we didn't know what the outcome of it was and it just changed the dynamic of what we were intending to do , because the goal was to train law enforcement military law enforcement military , because it's really all we had and just continued the condition gray model . And now you have this variable that comes out of the blue with the Bruin case and now 18 million people in the five boroughs wants to now on a fire .

Speaker 2 37:13

So where do you go ? Well , thank the gods , one of the prerequisites , or one of the one of the aspects of CCW is that you can have any type of striker fire ammunition to include NLTA , which is what this facility is . So you can do your quality , you could satisfy the needs of the New York State DCJS , whatever cert is , whatever the requirements are , with some munitions , force on force , utm , because those are striker fired munitions . So now , in the safety of this building , you can do your quail and take your class all onto one roof . Now , where does that leave us ? What is my future ? Well , we have 800 people . Probably by November will have over a thousand , so that's a thousand CCW holders who are in the myriad of different aspects of their process , some who have already received their permit , some who are still on the cusp of it , and then they're going to get it and with the hopes that they say you know what , it didn't end there , it just started there . Where ?

Speaker 1 38:14

do I go ?

Speaker 2 38:14

to train Now . I think the fruits of our labor are gone .

Speaker 1 38:17

And then , well then , you have all their friends and family who want to get CCW . Exactly , and you know what . You brought up something before by being red . I can tell you right now that red , blue , green , purple , everybody wants a CCW , 100% Everybody 100% these classes nobody care . You go in there and you're going to see like a grandma . You're going to see like a 20 year old kid with pink hair . Jason , it's so diverse .

Speaker 2 38:40

It's ridiculous . I kind of wish like people would see no one wants to get videoed in CCW and we always ask , okay , is everyone uncomfortable before we do ? We could really advertise the shit out of it and make probably double our profits , but we kind of keep it like hey , this is your income we got you . Word of mouth is fun .

Speaker 1 38:57

Yeah .

Speaker 2 38:59

When I tell you the diversity that walks into this building . Some of it's fun , because they tell you why they're here and some of them are like . Well , in my country , before I became a US citizen , we couldn't own firearms and they were all this turmoil . But here you can , so is that not like the perfect ?

Speaker 1 39:14

that's the second amendment .

Speaker 2 39:16

Like you came here because you fled a country that couldn't do that , and now you're here , and now you're exercising that right because you can hold it and it's not just you need .

Speaker 1 39:24

you're finding people that don't look at a firearm as a devil anymore . Right , they look at it as like , okay , it's fun .

Speaker 2 39:31

Yeah .

Speaker 1 39:32

When you like . That's why I'm so big into telling people to get into shooting sports , because it's like for sure , listen , I'm training just to shoot in time and move , and it's fun . You're competing against other people .

Speaker 2 39:44

So we have , if you haven't noticed when you pulled in , we're wedged in between the gymnastics very , very lucrative gymnastics gym . So it's nothing . But you know , moms in yoga pants all day . And then we're wedged in behind chili . So we have all these moms that when we first opened they were like is this place safe ? Are the other bullets going to come through the wall ? We had to deal with that .

Speaker 2 40:06

And there is this misconception that the only people that own guns in America are , you know , middle age white guys . And then , if you look at our clientele , it's women , young , old , everything in between , every color of the sun . And I think now we've become palatable to the neighbors . They have no issue with us and in fact some of them have come through for CCW , some of them take training , some of them have done home defense , some of them have done life wire clashes out in one hour . So I think that we're softening the blow . I think that if we had came hard out the gate prior to the opening and really screamed from the rafters that we existed , I think we would have been shut down . But we've caused , we've kind of like slowly , kind of eased into it . I think we become , you know at first we're all those are the gun guys . Now that's Joan Bob

Self-Taught Sewing and Gear Development

Speaker 2 40:55

. I think we're more self-taught .

Speaker 1 40:57

Like you know , you're sewing classes .

Speaker 2 41:00

I do yeah .

Speaker 1 41:01

Now , that's something that's like me , like I learned to sew when I was a kid . Yeah , and you know , when you're in military you have to sew , because you're always ripping shit button , button , button , these buttons . But anyway , you're always sewing . But what's up in , like the gear man everybody loves gear let's talk sewing man . Let's talk into these different types of classes , not just shooting .

Speaker 2 41:19

If it was , if I could have my way right now , I would just sit this out shop all day . I could sit there and build anything . I love it , so gear . So I came out of that course I was telling you about , I had a rubber band fail on me and it came back and I didn't know how to sew . So I talked , I reached out to somebody who did and I said hey , man , I want to bring this concept to life . And he goes Okay , tell me about it . And I told him . I said it's like a thing to like hold your sling so that it doesn't fall off , like a sling , like a retention device . And he goes oh , that's cool . He's like I don't think it's gonna sell . It sounds like a dumb shit . But yeah , I'll build it for you .

Speaker 2 41:53

So I built the gen one the first one is actually sitting upstairs on show and I built it and I released it and it started to like get a little bit of traction . And then I started doing a little more further outreach . I called units like hey , you want to T&A this ? You know , give me feedback . And that feedback led to the gen two , and the gen two led to the gen three , and the gen three is where we made our biggest kind of gains , where we realized it was more than just a sling retention device . We could also use it for holster use . And that's when the kind of the push kind of came out of nowhere . A lot of guys were taking this product . That doesn't change the liability of the holster , because it doesn't change anything on it . So if you have issues , safari land , you just take it , you put it on it doesn't change the screws and it's still within department needs but it's also still covered .

Speaker 2 42:43

It's easy to take on and off . So it started to become very popular in law enforcement . Eventually I start selling to some agencies , to include a local one being a month BD , we have a . We do sell to some of the units there and then it just kind of took off . So for about a good three years the gen three was just like I was just turning them out and then I started building other stuff , not for the purposes of what people asked for , just because I wanted to build stuff myself .

Speaker 2 43:11

I kept saying , man , I have nowhere to like hide these things costs by this , by that , because we have such a unique job with my job , I said I may build these things . So we started with the placard which is a deconfliction piece and it started with the . Then it was the hush rig and it was our IWB patch for cuffs and small radios . Like we just started like kind of staying in our lane . I could build other things but I like the EDC slash , low vis kind of realm because it just makes sense to underrepresented market and if you do build those things I think you have a smaller audience . But also no bins really catering to them , to where , as you know , when you're making chess rigs and play carries and stuff , everybody's doing those and those are . Those are awesome things to make too . But I just like staying in the realm of our shop . So I started selling the gen one pretty much took us to another , you know , took us into the game , and then the gen three is kind of where we're kind of solidified . So I have the gen four is just recently released . The gen three and four is sold globally . So we have customers overseas . I have customers throughout the US . It's been in conflict zones , it's been in videos , it's been on the news . I'll be watching the news like oh , look at that guy getting you know rested . Oh , look , there's an SRC . It's fucking awesome , it's absolutely awesome . The other day with the riots in union square , there was a cop just I mean just wrestling and rolling around and this SRC is getting the shit kicked out of it but it doesn't move . Yeah , marketing opportunity . Let me let everyone know that's my product . So we , you know we do , we have some fun .

Speaker 2 44:46

I get weird requests all the time . People like , hey , can you make me this , can you make me that . So that kind of what led to let's do a social , let's do an open social . So we started doing open . So come on , bring your favorite beer and we'll sit and we'll build shit Like why not ? You know , I think there's so many awesome people out there with great ideas , but there's no out for figuring out how do I bring this thing to life . So you come into the shop , you show it to us

Ideas, Products, and Changing Perceptions

Speaker 2 45:10

. Okay , this is the direction I would go . These are the materials I would use . This is how I would get it done . What do you want to do with it ? If it's something super cool , guess what ? We got you 100% . If it's something that like hey man , this is like a one done , I will tell you .

Speaker 2 45:23

But you never know , I got told I got laughed out of a military chat for offering my src three , I remember . Or I saying , hey , is there any air force ? I was in the air force at times , was in the reserves guard rather , and I offered it into this group , which was like senior mentors and all this other shit , and they like left me out of the group and I'm like one guy stepped up and said hey , I know your products , I actually own bubble blah , blah , blah . Hey , that's awesome , my unit would like it . So here I am many years later and all those people were like stupid idea . Really not a stupid idea , it's pretty , pretty lucrative idea , to be honest with you . But that's kind of what we're dealing with . We're dealing with a lot of old .

Speaker 1 46:01

I think most of it's gone but like the older crowd was like you know , that's like you mentioned the 90s and I remember the 90s when people were starting to transition from revolvers to semi-autos and I was like oh , there's no way , you can't . You know it's unreliable .

Speaker 2 46:17

And it's like it's different world .

Speaker 1 46:20

Well , brother , I appreciate you having us up . Yeah , thank you and looking forward to it .

Speaker 2 46:25

Thank you .

Speaker 1 46:26

Thank you for coming and thanks for having me protect yourself .

Speaker 2 46:28

Please eat before you leave , because you're still , like I said , you're in the best bottle I need the best bagels . Yeah , you're surrounded by my friend , surrounded by it .